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  1. #1
    DP Visionary FDL's Avatar
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    Glass Chalice vs Lyra Blackrose

    ETC FDL v Thiede

    I have Lyra out, he activates Glass Chalice with an empty hand. A card is discarded before he gets to pick which cards to shuffle back in.

    Is that correct?

    If Lyra activates on the instant Chalice is activated, shouldn't his hand be empty?
    If not, why not give him time to fully complete Chalice's ability?

    If you activate Zaladar's ability with Lyra out, does the discard happen before the targeting phase is completed?
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  2. #2
    Lead Developer / Designer Gondorian's Avatar
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    Great question!

    One part is easy to answer:

    Quote Originally Posted by FDL View Post
    If you activate Zaladar's ability with Lyra out, does the discard happen before the targeting phase is completed?
    No, because you can cancel. Only when the target has been confirmed does the SE get spent, the damage done and Lyra triggers.

    The harder part needs more thought. To date we have stated that the ability and its activation are inseparable and so the ability resolves before anything can respond to the activation (e.g. Consuming Fear takes 2HP from DMT after he successfully pings someone for 2), but multi-part effects are trickier. We have to support triggers within effects so that responses can happen to individual card draw or discard, but maybe responses to activation are special and can't happen until after all the effect has resolved. I don't know. It's not coded like that right now, but maybe that's what we need.

    I lean towards letting Chalice fully resolve. However, there is an argument for triggering at the very start, as soon as you activate the ability and before the ability resolves and that might make things simpler. If that argument wins, then we'd need a new ruling which would effectively buff Lyra and Consuming Fear and Io Void Leviathon, etc.

  3. #3
    Chat Mod Kip thorp's Avatar
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    My brain hurts!
    Please let me know when this can be explained simply!
    I've not run into it yet, but it's a fascinating question.
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  4. #4
    DP Visionary Index's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kip thorp View Post
    My brain hurts!
    Please let me know when this can be explained simply!
    I've not run into it yet, but it's a fascinating question.
    My understanding of GDC's answer is that THEY HAVE NOT DECIDED THIS YET.
    Hope that helps.
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    Lead Developer / Designer Gondorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Index View Post
    My understanding of GDC's answer is that THEY HAVE NOT DECIDED THIS YET.
    Hope that helps.
    Yeah, this query has made us aware of a decision that previously we didn't know we needed to make. It's gone from unknown unknown to a known unknown. Progress!

  6. #6
    DP Visionary Index's Avatar
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    And after you letting us know, it's now a known known unknown
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  7. #7
    Lead Developer / Designer Gondorian's Avatar
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    OK, I've decided that an ability is considered activated when all its effects have had the opportunity to resolve. (If some part couldn't resolve due to board state or whatever, then it still had the opportunity.)

    Rationale: Before Shattered Fates, we said that the activation and the effect were inseparable (so Eladwen/Zaladar could kill off Io Void Leviathan before it could grow). This is in line with that.

    Any other ruling, where activation is considered to happen once "the first part" has resolved, will lead to ambiguity down the line, since you could argue about how to split an effect into "parts". It's better that all parts get chance to resolve and then it's considered activated.

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