Thoughts on Ythan at 3s instead of 4s

[painful_smile]

Ythan is one of the most underrated heroes. His damage output is insanly high. Twilight dementreyo with extra sharp or strengh of convictiom deals 14 damage from then hand.
And twilight rush has also insane good synergy with decoy trap

[udy]

Ythan is one of the most underrated heroes. His damage output is insanly high. Twilight dementreyo with extra sharp or strengh of convictiom deals 14 damage from then hand.
And twilight rush has also insane good synergy with decoy trap

Decoying death from Twilight Herald is not so... insane... duh

[painful_smile]

Decoying death from Twilight Herald is not so... insane... duh

Decoying death from Twilight Opportunist makes him keep the +3 damage (and next time you use ability he has 6 damage).
Decoying death from Dementreyo lets him stay on the board.

[Cassio]

Decoying death from Dementreyo lets him stay on the board.

Demetreyo has 2 heath... chances are that he'll be killed before actually having the chance to attack with him again.

Decoying death from Twilight Opportunist makes him keep the +3 damage (and next time you use ability he has 6 damage).

Essentially you'll be trading a 3cc card (Twilight Eidolon) to keep a 2cc card on board. You could use the Eidolon if you have another twilight ally on board, but that means you summoned another twilight on T1.

Let's recap:

T1: Twilight Herald (if you manage to actually draw it)
T2: Twilight Opportunist (if you manage to actually draw it) or Twilight Shaman (which is almost useless)
T3: Twilight Eidolon (if you manage to actually draw it) and you draw a card

If you activate Twilight Opportunist's ability you deal 3 dmg on your opponent's hero and you're left on T4 with a 1/1 creature and a 0/4 creature.

If you don't activate Twilight Opportunist's ability your opponent will probably kill your Herald making your Eidolon useless to decoy death to Twilight Opportunist and, again, you're left with a 1/1 creature and a 0/4 creature on your T4.

IMHO T3 Twilight Eidolon is simply not worth it.

From T4 onwards you'll be struggling to keep the board and, unless you start casting Bad Santas or another draw engine (which again won't help you with board control), you'll soon start top-decking.

Hunters don't have class cards to help you reclaim the board and Ythan's ability won't help you either in this regard, unless you cast it on Viska (on T6) or Demetreyo and even then you can only do that every 4 turns.

Your only choice most of the times at this point forward is going for the throat, but you need: attachments to boost your hasted allies, hasted allies (which will probably die before your next turn since you lost the board), some draw cards and some stalling cards (ITF for example, or else you'll die, since your opponent meanwhile will have 3/4 allies on the board already). You need a lot of cards... ;P

Now what are the hasted allies Ythan can use?
-Demetreyo, which has a conditional haste and dies at the end of your turn (again useless for the board);
-Viska, which is unique and 6CC;
-Kristoffer Wyld (a 1/1 ally that dies so easily it's not worth casting an attachment on him);
-FFM (this one is slightly better since it has a nice survivability, too bad you'll be only diluting your deck using him on a twilight deck).

TL;DR
1 - a Twilight rush deck is inconsistent, and most of the times you're better off with a standard Puwen-Aldon.

2 - The main problem with Ythan is that Hunters lack control cards and his ability costs too much to be useful for managing the board, hence he must go for the throat, relying on hasted or high health allies.

Let's see other hunters:

Gwen 3SE: compared to Ythan her bows with Rapid Fire or Woodland Spotter act as hasted allies, except they have some very nice added effects, like healing or discard;

Victor 4SE: can control the board waaay better than Ythan, plus his ability has a cantrip effect. Raven's Gambit is amazing on him.

Banebow 3SE: his ability with Furrion Terror and DMT...

Banduro 4SE: a very nice resource acceleration makes him able to cast a buffed bow and a fatty on the same turn. With his new toy, Emore Crossbow, he's able to hold the board efficiently.

Skervox 4SE: IMHO he's not all that compared to BB, but his ability is made specifically to control the board.

Conclusion
I hope that the DT keep an eye on Ythan's winrate and act accordingly.
I understand that making Ythan's ability 3SE may be too much, but if they keep it at 4 IMHO they'll need to find a way to boost him on the next set.
Having hooks for the next expansions is fine, but releasing a hero that needs cards that simply aren't there yet to be competitive is a mistake.

[Airact]

Decoying death =/= Using Twilight Eidolon


Decoying death = using Decoy Trap to negate lethal damage (or in this case, the abilities of Detremeyo and Opportunist).



In other news: I think Twilight Eidolon is a bad card, that's about it. Also I don't think Ythan is on-par with Gwen right now. They have similar win conditions but Gwen just does everything better.

[Cassio]

Decoying death =/= Using Twilight Eidolon


Decoying death = using Decoy Trap to negate lethal damage (or in this case, the abilities of Detremeyo and Opportunist).

I must have misread his post, but it doesn't change much, well actually it's even worse ;P
At the end of your T3 you have a 1/1 ally and a 4/2 ally on the board (Demetreyo survives thanks to Decoy Trap).
On his turn, your opponent kills Demetreyo with pretty much anything and you're left with a 1/1 ally on the board on T4.

In other news: I think Twilight Eidolon is a bad card, that's about it. Also I don't think Ythan is on-par with Gwen right now. They have similar win conditions but Gwen just does everything better.

Agreed.

[ir7xps]

Having been tinkering with Ythan for a while, I'm now working towards a 'hit and run' approach. Getting the best out of Twilight allies certainly isn't straightforward, feels like a lot of mental gymnastics.

Demetreyo, is a tough one. My preference is to either use ritualist's headdress before the turn is over, or bring him back into my hand with road less travelled. The real problem is holding down the board with whatever's left. I feel like he's a lot more useful if he pops up a little later in the game, playing him turn three feels like a waste.

The twilight can combo nicely, but only if you've got the right cards...

[udy]

Decoying death from Twilight Opportunist makes him keep the +3 damage (and next time you use ability he has 6 damage).
Decoying death from Dementreyo lets him stay on the board.

IMO decoy trap is conditional card.
We dont want unexpected ally trigger it i.e. we wont cast it when theres any Twilight Herald on play, or we wont cast a Twilight Herald if there any Decoy Trap on play. U can replace TH there with any other unexpected ally u can think off.

Decoy trap is not a good addition for Ythan-Twiilght deck, but thats only a theory on my head. Need to try it to be sure, and somehow I hope I was wrong

[painful_smile]

Demetreyo has 2 heath... chances are that he'll be killed before actually having the chance to attack with him again.



Essentially you'll be trading a 3cc card (Twilight Eidolon) to keep a 2cc card on board. You could use the Eidolon if you have another twilight ally on board, but that means you summoned another twilight on T1.

Let's recap:

T1: Twilight Herald (if you manage to actually draw it)
T2: Twilight Opportunist (if you manage to actually draw it) or Twilight Shaman (which is almost useless)
T3: Twilight Eidolon (if you manage to actually draw it) and you draw a card

If you activate Twilight Opportunist's ability you deal 3 dmg on your opponent's hero and you're left on T4 with a 1/1 creature and a 0/4 creature.

If you don't activate Twilight Opportunist's ability your opponent will probably kill your Herald making your Eidolon useless to decoy death to Twilight Opportunist and, again, you're left with a 1/1 creature and a 0/4 creature on your T4.

IMHO T3 Twilight Eidolon is simply not worth it.

From T4 onwards you'll be struggling to keep the board and, unless you start casting Bad Santas or another draw engine (which again won't help you with board control), you'll soon start top-decking.

Hunters don't have class cards to help you reclaim the board and Ythan's ability won't help you either in this regard, unless you cast it on Viska (on T6) or Demetreyo and even then you can only do that every 4 turns.

Your only choice most of the times at this point forward is going for the throat, but you need: attachments to boost your hasted allies, hasted allies (which will probably die before your next turn since you lost the board), some draw cards and some stalling cards (ITF for example, or else you'll die, since your opponent meanwhile will have 3/4 allies on the board already). You need a lot of cards... ;P

Now what are the hasted allies Ythan can use?
-Demetreyo, which has a conditional haste and dies at the end of your turn (again useless for the board);
-Viska, which is unique and 6CC;
-Kristoffer Wyld (a 1/1 ally that dies so easily it's not worth casting an attachment on him);
-FFM (this one is slightly better since it has a nice survivability, too bad you'll be only diluting your deck using him on a twilight deck).

TL;DR
1 - a Twilight rush deck is inconsistent, and most of the times you're better off with a standard Puwen-Aldon.

2 - The main problem with Ythan is that Hunters lack control cards and his ability costs too much to be useful for managing the board, hence he must go for the throat, relying on hasted or high health allies.

Let's see other hunters:

Gwen 3SE: compared to Ythan her bows with Rapid Fire or Woodland Spotter act as hasted allies, except they have some very nice added effects, like healing or discard;

Victor 4SE: can control the board waaay better than Ythan, plus his ability has a cantrip effect. Raven's Gambit is amazing on him.

Banebow 3SE: his ability with Furrion Terror and DMT...

Banduro 4SE: a very nice resource acceleration makes him able to cast a buffed bow and a fatty on the same turn. With his new toy, Emore Crossbow, he's able to hold the board efficiently.

Skervox 4SE: IMHO he's not all that compared to BB, but his ability is made specifically to control the board.

Conclusion
I hope that the DT keep an eye on Ythan's winrate and act accordingly.
I understand that making Ythan's ability 3SE may be too much, but if they keep it at 4 IMHO they'll need to find a way to boost him on the next set.
Having hooks for the next expansions is fine, but releasing a hero that needs cards that simply aren't there yet to be competitive is a mistake.

Nice analysis. Just the wrong card :-)
Decoy trap prevents the lethal damage at the end of the turn. It costs only 2cc. and allies don't get resetted.
I had games where I decoyed Twilight oppornuist 2 times. Then the third time I used his ability he hit for 9 damage. With ability for 20.
There is some fun stuff you can do.
But yeah this twilight rush is very all-inish. If you don't want all-in human hunter Gwen or Victor are better options.

All in all its just funny if your opponent has to play careful once he has less then 14 or even less than 18 hp on the hero.

[Twio]

TJ WrathOfCroft vs tman507

Ythan > Amber lel