sword thief - Great Job!

[Outl4w]

Okay well here is my explanation,
The issue with the Nerf to Garth is that without the DoT he has no immediate presence on board position or tempo. This instantly fells him to a Tier 3 hero, being as his ability really does nothing while playing from behind, sure it can be argued that it makes AB effective or allows a 3 attack ally to take down an aeon, it's neat but the consistency here is the issue, in almost every given situation I can play the exact same game better with either of the other rogue heros. Even other tier 3 heros like Ter and Jericho have the situational ability to gain tempo versus specific archetypes allowing them to be played competitively in the right meta, Garth isn't even granted this luxury, there is rarely if ever (now) a situation that would call for me using him over Lance, as Lances ability allows more durability and would actually be useful for taking back the board. If you find yourself behind using Garth without any solid hasted ally the only thing you can do is pray for AB. I could give much more detailed explanations but I'm in my phone. To digress, Garth hasn't been made unplayable as his ability is relevant to any game with an equal or dominant board, however his ability to fall behind so easily would put him amongst the worst heros.

[Biasair]

I understand nerf of Sword Thief was needed, though don't like such a way.
Well, unlike LS, his ability can be used whenever and he have 3 value attack, so thats why it was too strong and everyone play 4xThief. But how can ally with 3cc/2/3 effect on board? The differense of LS and His ability is small, but isn't the difference of status bigger??
I prefer Capo's opinion, making him unique. If he is unique and you pick 4xThief, you met trouble when he is cripped. But in current card pool, you have Volzitian Orders and Road Less Traveled so still useful and enjoynable.

I also comment about Garth since seems there are a lot comment about him.
I think old garth's ability is broken in Rogue's because in next enemy turn a ally is dealt 2 damages by Poison ability damage, that make dealing Karash, NS quite easy.
(we can compare with Serena's ability, but I think it is not good way. because any cards can't make her ability competitive any more) Though, I think it is over nerf. Garth as well as Serena became dramatically weak against ally or hero with stealth. seems stealth ability is nothing in SF, but how about in future?
I think if his ability effect in my turn only, it will be fine.

[Palestitch]

So I know 3 games if a small sample size, but I played 3 games with Garth and won all 3 leading me to first assumption that Garth and Sword Thief might be fine, but I will do further testing.

[Daemon Rayge]

So I know 3 games if a small sample size, but I played 3 games with Garth and won all 3 leading me to first assumption that Garth and Sword Thief might be fine, but I will do further testing.

Good guy Palestitch. I do not see why you should just arbitrarily complain without actually testing your hypothesis throughly.

Some things sound better on paper and in theory than they do in game. And vise-versa.

[Xander Spitfire]

Balancing isn't wish fulfillment and acting like your opinion represents the whole community isn't exactly helping to keep the argument rational.

In my experience, the DT usually listens more to reason than anger & snark. Of the former i've seen far more from posters supporting the change (which isn't even final). Additionally, the DT has access to the server stats to help inform their decisions.

Maybe it's just a perspective thing. During pfg and alpha testing cards changed all the time to try and get the set closer and closer to being "fair". Just don't get too emotionally attached to them as long as they're still undergoing close scrutiny, all i'm saying.

I agree on all points. And they do listen quite a bit. Make no mistake about that.

[xGuardian Angelx]

The thought that class allies MUST be better than faction allies is so wrong. With that reasoning, we could get a boosted aldon, which is even worst than a boosted seductress. Both of those are 95% autoinclude in any deck in DP, so why created an improved version of these cards, it makes no sense. If the class ally has advantages and disatvantages different than those cards (e.g. Better ability, worst body), while keeping the same power level, then its fine.

I totally disagree with you. I did not say you have to make them OP, but I still belive they should be stronger than neutral allies, since they have a restriction.

[Atomzed]

I played against palestitch Garth and I must say that on top of the wins, what impress me is Garth ability to control the board.

He has the best control weapon in AB (5 dmg with his ability), he has assassination, coercion (use enemy ally to kick off other allies + 1 turn delay), sword thief, assassination, retreat, road less travelled (not optimal, but still an emergency). And while flooding the board is the best way to deal with rogues, his ability is spamable enough. And he has access to shuriken (1 SE to kill off 1 ally of CHOICE if opponent has 3 and more allies).

He has great draw with repaid in full (he will kill lotsa allies with weapon and ability), IGG (best draw engine), road less travelled.

There are various haste allies available, with demetryo (4 attack), the 6cc human ally (3 attack, does not take damage from hero combat damage).

While I agree that his ability change will make it less effective against ironhide karash and nightshade (and other stealth allies) and Wulven salvage (immune to combat damage), that has always been a weakness for rogue. Will it make it tier 3? I really don't think so. I think Garth is in really good hands.

I actually think that Serena will be a distant third among rogues. And with so many draw options available now, her hand discard ability doesn't seem so useful anymore.

[Airact]

I actually think that Serena will be a distant third among rogues. And with so many draw options available now, her hand discard ability doesn't seem so useful anymore.

Serena is bad and will probably always be bad unless the DT decides that discarding is not NPE anymore.

[xGuardian Angelx]

Guys, i'm sorry if I have come off rude in this thread. That has not been my intention, but this subject really irritates me. Let me explain why.

This nerf of Sword Thief puts LS back as the front runner. What I mean is that now Rogue decks will go back to using LS over ST. Both Jets and Shadow Mann pointed this out. LS is now completely better than ST and will be used over ST in a Rogue deck, which I find highly frustrating. When you make an ally that essentially does the same thing as LS for the Rogue class, there needs to be a reason for players to pick that ally over the neutral ally. The 3atk on ST gave players a reason to choose him over LS. Now, this won't be the case, because ST now has 2cc stats. Any good player will always pick LS over ST at this point, since the 4 health is so important. LS also has another huge advantage on ST, because she stops allies from using activated abilities as well. Yes, I am taking into consideration LS' restriction, but she is still better in every way at this point. So to stress the main point once more, LS (neutral ally) will be picked over ST(Rogue ally), which practically has the same ability as LS, in Rogue decks. I find that wrong in every way.

[Shadow Mann]

So I know 3 games if a small sample size, but I played 3 games with Garth and won all 3 leading me to first assumption that Garth and Sword Thief might be fine, but I will do further testing.

But there are also a lot of horrible decks and poor play in beta right now.