WC2013 Grand Finals

[pyrogene]

It is true that default double-elimination implies that the winner of the winner bracket has an "extra life". But it is also true that a variation of double-elimination can be used as well as long as it is communicated in sufficient details to the participants as what Wulven has claimed. Especially with the precedent of the first day where there were questions asked directly on the issue and Wulven answered. So the crux of the matter is really if Wulven did not communicate this rule variation and whether there were formal complaints raised beforehand. If either were true then I do think Monomax has a case.

[Veles]

I'll just add that for me rules weren't clear on finals format. I didn't watch the stream except day 2 finals, I wasn't on tournament irc channel. Having tournament thread only I expected finals to be double elimination as well. In the future please pay attention to these details so there aren't any more uncomfortable situations like this!

I am also not sure why it was chosen to be this way on first place. Reasoning that player going trough loser brackets had hard time to get to finals is just silly. That's why it is called losers brackets. They need to prove they deserve second chance!

But enough of rant. All finalists deserve to be there. Congratz to Leo and LyingDragon. I am looking forward to that epic bo7 match!

[Gondorian]

As has been said a number of times, we listen to constructive feedback and want the make the event better each year, but pot-stirring is not appreciated. I'm sure Monomax appreciates all the support, but the debate over a misinterpretation is not being helped by further distortion ...


Nothing was overridden by an IRC conversation. It was clarified there. It's the TO's job to clarify things when there are questions. Mojumbo did that. As TO, his say and his decision are final. He stuck to his guns throughout the event on a number of things, and that's the mark of a great TO. He deserves respect and should be given it.


Does that make the complaints go away? Of course not. But let's stick to the facts. What are they?

Clearly, there was some confusion by at least one player, and more and more inconsistencies are being pointed out now in the rules (like the definition of double-elimination compared to the description of the format as having a bo5 final) but there are 3 things to remember here:

1) the format was set beforehand and should be stuck to by the TO, especially when one player has fully understood it. Changing the format away from what's intended and away from what was understood by one in favour of a misinterpretation by the other would be ridiculous. If you disagree, I'd be really interested to hear why you think LyingDragon, rightful Day 2 champion, should now have to put that on the line in another best of five.

2) whether the format was known or not, both players in that best of 5 had the chance to win and LyingDragon took it convincingly 3-0.

3) the inconsistencies in the description of the event should not have happened, but alas they did. That's unfortunate, but they were there to be clarified long before Day 1 began. Had each player read all the rules carefully, and raised any inconsistencies they found before the start, there would not be any issues here at all.

It's a real shame this is now putting a cloud over a fantastic weekend of matches and a very well organised event by Mojumbo and SamuelJ. Monomax should be heard and empathised with, but not via public backlash.

[The Haydes]

If you're going to play a double elimination tournament then you should play a double elimination tournament. At this point there are two players who have lost 1 match each and should still be eligible to win. If you didn't want to play a double elimination tournament then you should declare Monomax the winner. I have no idea why anyone would think that it is fair that the winners bracket winner should get less of a chance than anyone else. No offense to LD who is a great player, but he hasn't earned the win and it would be truly a shame of he was crowned champion based on a ruling that makes no sense.

[Raphael Majere]

As has been said a number of times, we listen to constructive feedback and want the make the event better each year, but pot-stirring is not appreciated. I'm sure Monomax appreciates all the support, but the debate over a misinterpretation is not being helped by further distortion ...


Nothing was overridden by an IRC conversation. It was clarified there. It's the TO's job to clarify things when there are questions. Mojumbo did that. As TO, his say and his decision are final. He stuck to his guns throughout the event on a number of things, and that's the mark of a great TO. He deserves respect and should be given it.


Does that make the complaints go away? Of course not. But let's stick to the facts. What are they?

Clearly, there was some confusion by at least one player, and more and more inconsistencies are being pointed out now in the rules (like the definition of double-elimination compared to the description of the format as having a bo5 final) but there are 3 things to remember here:

1) the format was set beforehand and should be stuck to by the TO, especially when one player has fully understood it. Changing the format away from what's intended and away from what was understood by one in favour of a misinterpretation by the other would be ridiculous. If you disagree, I'd be really interested to hear why you think LyingDragon, rightful Day 2 champion, should now have to put that on the line in another best of five.

2) whether the format was known or not, both players in that best of 5 had the chance to win and LyingDragon took it convincingly 3-0.

3) the inconsistencies in the description of the event should not have happened, but alas they did. That's unfortunate, but they were there to be clarified long before Day 1 began. Had each player read all the rules carefully, and raised any inconsistencies they found before the start, there would not be any issues here at all.

It's a real shame this is now putting a cloud over a fantastic weekend of matches and a very well organised event by Mojumbo and SamuelJ. Monomax should be heard and empathised with, but not via public backlash.

I think no one's intention is to stir the pot. I would just highlight that all the feedback on this thread as well on the ones on the other thread (http://www.shadowera.com/showpost.php?p=445557), everyone (including Danae) agrees that format and concept of double-elimination was not practiced and no one is actually supporting the rules stated by TOs.

[Cozy Don]

The person most affected Monomax has accepted the organizer's decision so why dwell on it? I dont think we're gonna see the finals re-played out. Would be huge letdown.

[danae]

Well it seems that from Day 1 of the Grand Finals, this change in the format was already communicated to the participants. Objections should have been done at that point and not after the fact. I'm just not sure why Monomax was unaware of this when it seems like all other participants were.

I congratulate all players of their achievements. Playing in one tournament with so many games for several hours is no mean feat and having to do it two days in a row is amazing. I must say though that LyingDragon having done it for three straight days (he played LQ tournament as well) is definitely awesome (or crazy ).

KA Leo and LyingDragon have proved themselves as the best of the best by being in the Top 4 in both Days and rightfully deserve their spots for the Finals. I look forward to watching that Bo7.

[Raphael Majere]

The person most affected Monomax has accepted the organizer's decision so why dwell on it? I dont think we're gonna see the finals re-played out. Would be huge letdown.

The TO decided, without writting anything or announcing it prior to our game, that they refused that we play our second sets of bo5.
They announced it at the end of the bo5 after I lost.

This kind of thing shouldnt happen in a Worlds final and show a great lack of professional skill.

Im still upset about that situation because the result of the tournament isnt fair, and could have been different.
And I want people to understand that Lyingdragon is a great player and he may have won the second bo5, but still, rule of double elimination/challonge bracket would have been respected.

We will never know.

Monomax may have accepted the TO's decision but clearly he's not happy about it.

No, I do not think the finals should be replayed. I agree with u there.

[Gondorian]

I think no one's intention is to stir the pot. I would just highlight that all the feedback on this thread as well on the ones on the other thread (link), everyone (including Danae) agrees that format and concept of double-elimination was not practiced and no one is actually supporting the rules stated by TOs.

Well, it would have been great to have known that BEFORE. Had we known the TO was universally disagreed with, something might have been done.

But, the reality is that, out of all those people saying the TO is wrong, I see one comment from Busti asking for clarification before the event, which led to clarification being given before the event.

[Raphael Majere]

Well it seems that from Day 1 of the Grand Finals, this change in the format was already communicated to the participants. Objections should have been done at that point and not after the fact. I'm just not sure why Monomax was unaware of this when it seems like all other participants were.

Well, it would have been great to have known that BEFORE. Had we known the TO was universally disagreed with, something might have been done.

But, the reality is that, out of all those people saying the TO is wrong, I see one comment from Busti asking for clarification before the event, which led to clarification being given before the event.

If you gentlemen would give me 10 mins, I'll explain and elaborate further, it's hard to type in the loo. I was there on day 1, and I did ask about the double Elim aspect of the winner's bracket.