Balance Discussion: Furion Terror and Paladin of Unaxio

[Raphael Majere]

well, at least these discussions are taking place.

At least the physical cards are not printed yet and changes are still possible.

[iClipse]

I love FT so I'm afraid I can't agree to nerf him :P. I must add that IMO, FT is the big guy that balanced Shadow. I mean without his boardwiping capabilities, do you think we'll have Solo Baduruu? Solo Ter Adun? Almost all, if not all good solo Shadow heroes rely on Furrion recursion to be effective. So from a devil's advocate point of view, I really wouldn't want a counter for FT, his what made previously unplayable heroes playable

He isn't asking for a nerf. He's asking for something that can counter it.

[busti]

He's a 4/3, once you drop it he dies to almost anything. He can't even kill an opponent Furrion lol. Only Majiya can scream "And now?"

Weak body is different than weak card.
If Furrion helps clear the board and remains on board, this is a total turnover of the board, and you need to take care of it with your own removal before being able to play threats. This is a 100% tempo reversal.

But as i said, even if it wasn't that good, haveing a possible counter can't hurt

[roustabout]

I love FT so I'm afraid I can't agree to nerf him :P. I must add that IMO, FT is the big guy that balanced Shadow. I mean without his boardwiping capabilities, do you think we'll have Solo Baduruu? Solo Ter Adun? Almost all, if not all good solo Shadow heroes rely on Furrion recursion to be effective. So from a devil's advocate point of view, I really wouldn't want a counter for FT, his what made previously unplayable heroes playable

Look, I'm not advocating a nerf to FT. I thought I made that clear. A counter is different to a nerf in two ways: first, you have to pack the counter into your deck. This means you have to take some other good cards out. So the game changes. Or you can elect to go without the counter and keep your other good cards. A nerf to FT directly would be a disaster.

And second, your point about all shadow heroes relying on FT is well taken. This is true and this illustrates why there needs to be a counter. FT, a single card, is dominating the shape of the meta right now because there is no counter. Counters open up more gameplay possibilities.

[qaz92zaq]

Honestly if FT forces human decks to come up with a new game plan from the classic puwen jasmine aldon I am not sure its a bad thing. Either way though I am not sure anyone would run a Pali with weaker stats in order to delay FT for a turn. As for FT having no counter yes this could be a problem (SFW doesn't count since its priest only) but as I said I am not sure changing pali like that would fix it. In order for a counter to be effective it needs to be good enough that people use it as a non tech card. For example BF was by far the best draw engine in the game. Half of that was its almost unconditional extra card a turn but the other half was there was far more item hate on QM than Sever Ties.

[roustabout]

@qaz
Certainly the proposed change to Paladin (the 5cc version) would not make him LESS played. As is, he is barely played at all. He is, at worst, a decent ally, but he now has a useful purpose in all shadow matchups and against human mages.

[Shadowborn]

Make him more versatile. The way i see it, cards that are taking up slots in the deck are being used not only as tech but also because they work great against all decks and not only specific ones. Best example I can think of is Artful Squire. He acts as tech against items but lets say you're playing against a nearly itemless deck, Banebow maybe? And his the only ally you draw that turn. Thus Artful Squire can be used as both item destruction against item-reliant decks or as an ally against decks less reliant on items. Best way for Paladin to be versatile would be passive: your hero and allies take 1 less ability damage. I'm not sure if that would make him very powerful but it'll definetly make him more playable and versatile, not only against FT

[qaz92zaq]

@qaz
Certainly the proposed change to Paladin (the 5cc version) would not make him LESS played. As is, he is barely played at all. He is, at worst, a decent ally, but he now has a useful purpose in all shadow matchups and against human mages.

Decks only have a certain amount of room for fatties with a stat reduction I am not sure he will actually see more play than he gets now. That is if he is mainly only to counter FT for a single turn (yes you can counter it pretty well by paying 2 every turn after but unless the deck you are playing against must play FT or they lose the tempo loss will cost you). Remember haste is also something human decks should want to counter do the there weak allies and it being quite common now. When I have limited room and need to counter multiple things both common Brax at least has fatty stats and is useful going first or second. Perhaps I am wrong but would you honestly run 3 or 4 of your paladins in many of your human decks?

[Kratylus]

I agree that a counter to FT would be nice, since there is indeed no counter to his ability right now. I also agree that Paladin of Unaxio is a good starting point to base this counter on. However, if the specific change you suggested is made, I'm not sure anyone would play him, since he would be not much more than a counter to a single card and therefore deemed "too situational".

My question as food for thought is, would Unaxio really be OP if the shielding to your allies was permanent? FT's can be considered permanent, since the damage is usually there to stay, and can be universally and reliably be applied on summon - unlike the shielding, which requires action by your opponent, that is far from guaranteed.

Paladin of Unaxio is rarely used in the current meta from what I've seen, and FT is everywhere. I'm not saying that FT needs a nerf, but I think it's an indication that Unaxio is not quite as useful as he was envisioned. I wouldn't be against a little boost, if it is indeed possible at this stage. I don't think it would be gamebreaking in any way, and it would give an option to those who consider FT a serious threat that needs to be countered.

[roustabout]

Decks only have a certain amount of room for fatties with a stat reduction I am not sure he will actually see more play than he gets now. That is if he is mainly only to counter FT for a single turn (yes you can counter it pretty well by paying 2 every turn after but unless the deck you are playing against must play FT or they lose the tempo loss will cost you). Remember haste is also something human decks should want to counter do the there weak allies and it being quite common now. When I have limited room and need to counter multiple things both common Brax at least has fatty stats and is useful going first or second. Perhaps I am wrong but would you honestly run 3 or 4 of your paladins in many of your human decks?

The stat nerf to paladin is negotiable; I only suggested it because I don't want to make the new Paladin OP. Maybe it isn't actually needed. If it is, I would say 3/5 instead of 3/6. But maybe 3/6 is fine.

Also, I don't think it's the right question to ask whether you would honestly run 3-4 in your human decks. The answer to that question is, and should be, meta dependent. Paladin, like Brax soldier, would essentially be a tech card that isn't useless when the tech isn't needed. So in a meta full of FT, the answer would be, yes, I probably would find space for the new Paladin. But maybe the new Paladin would make FT slightly less popular, and I would want to switch Paladin back out for something else. To me, this gives the game more dimensions and keeps it more interesting. Deck composition shifts with the evolution of the meta.