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  1. #11
    Senior Member Narziss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyja View Post
    Gosh, I'll have to agree with some but disagree with a few: (just my opinion)

    Ter Adun will be powerful once weapons comes out.

    Fire Snake should be higher. The only 1 cast creature in the entire game. Every point counts and so does every turn, which brings me to the next point:

    Holy Shield and Rain Delay. In my opinion these cards are too good to say "1". Remember that every turn counts. If you can stall for just one turn, it could mean a game changer. It's either going to be a spell, which holy shied will block, or an attack, which rain delay will block. It's ALMOST like "Orim's Chant" if you've ever played Magic the Gathering. Borderline broken.

    Other than that, interesting list!
    I feel like something many people ignore but you really have to keep in mind is Card Advantage. Cards like Rain Delay and Holy Shield do not net you any sort of card advantage, in fact, they give you a card disadvantage. Same with Fire Snake (this thing just dies, giving you a -1 card advantage). At the very least you want to play with cards that trade one for one (you use one card to eliminate one of your opponent's cards, giving you a +0 card advantage). Great cards are cards that trade one for two (Lightning Strike is a great example; you can use this one card to kill two enemy allies, thus netting you a +1 card advantage. Again, cards like Fire Snake, Rain Delay, and Holy Shield are really bad because they give you a -1 card advantage (in the majority of circumstances, they don't even trade for another card).

    Yeah, I know Orim's Chant, I played a ton of Magic the Gathering, but I don't even understand how you can compare them, since Orim's Chant is good and Rain Delay is bad (does rain delay prevent opponents from playing cards?--no). Hmm.... How can I put it..... How about this: let me make a list of things you want to keep in mind:

    1. Card Advantage (Does the card trade 1-for-1 "okay" or 1-for-0 "bad" or 1-for-2 "excellent"; Sandra, Belladonna and Lightning Strike are two clear examples of awesome 1-for-2 trades. If you can get a card to count for two or more, then you are on the right track. Obviously, cards that let you draw give you a great advantage in that they slim down your deck and give an immediate card advantage, like Research or Blood Frenzy. However, be careful of playing cards like Bad Santa which actually can benefit your opponent more than it benefits you, since playing it when both players have empty hands actually nets you a -1 card advantage because you both gained three cards but you paid one. Unless Bazaar is part of your long term strategy, be careful in using it since it gives you both a -1 card advantage and a loss of tempo, since your opponent gets to take advantage of the extra draw before you).

    2. Tempo (Sometimes cards don't give you a card advantage but they give you some tempo, letting you outpace your opponents. Examples include "Here Be Monsters" which trades 1-for-1 but grants you a tempo advantage. You might think that Rain Delay falls into this category and that it makes up for the 1-for-0 card disadvantage by granting you tempo, but in reality, Rain Delay just slows you down since it takes time and resources to cast it which could have been instead allocated toward strengthening your defenses, instead of just stalling the game and putting yourself at a card disadvantage).

    3. Board Presence (This is really important since attacking allies get first strike. Portal is a great card for facilitating Board Presence since you are able to kill enemy allies before they get a chance to attack you.)

    4. Damage (So in the end you win the game by dishing out enough damage to kill your opponent; nevertheless, this is your long term goal. The more important goals, your short term goals, are card advantage, tempo, and board presence. In fact, don't think of damage as a separate long term goals, just think of these short term goals (tempo, card advantage, and board presence) as indirect but highly effective means of working toward this long term goal. In other words, starting a game off by hurling a Fireball at your opponent hero is usually a bad idea since, although you are dealing 4 damage, you are putting yourself at a -1 card advantage. Cards like Fire Snake that can't survive enough to trade one-for-one are really bad. Instead, dropping a Sandra grants you the tempo to dish out more damage before you opponent is able to set up defenses and dropping a Belladonna gives you the card advantage to establish your presence in the long term).


    The fascinating thing about Shadow Era is that, while in Magic the Gathering you have to strategically make a deck that either slants toward card advantage or toward tempo, in Shadow Era you can make a deck that is balanced in both and then you can tactically choose to play one or the other (and use the other's cards as your resources).
    Last edited by Narziss; 02-25-2011 at 12:27 PM.

  2. #12
    Member FaTaLiTy's Avatar
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    @Narziss
    Great post, i have played some CCG/TCG's but never MTG but i can clearly see your point and your post has actually made me make changes to my deck, so thank you.

  3. #13
    Senior Member AnAdolt's Avatar
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    @Narziss
    Card advantage helps you, it's not a game decider. It's just a variable amongst the many in matches. Fire Snake is not useless, if used effectively, it doesn't "just die". Saying Fire Snake just dies and gives you -1 card advantage can be used for any card where the player misuses it. Rain Delay and Holy Shield also have their uses and shouldn't be dismissed. However, I won't take the same stance as tonyja and say they're exceptionally good.

    You were pushing for making Portal cheaper before and clearly, Portal is widely popular rigth now and people are pushing for nerfs. Basically, my conclusion is some of your views are again based on outside perception and you haven't had more direct and indepth experiences with some of these cards.

  4. #14
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    I'll agree that I may have overstated Rain Delay and Holy Shields power, but I just don't think it should be thrown aside as useless. Yes Orim's Chant is a bad example:

    But, keep in mind that this is a limited environment. Because this is just the first set, for now, I believe in my experience that these cards give a great advantage. For example, Magic the Gathering's: "terror". Amazing card when it first came out in alpha. Now? Now it's almost useless unless you're creating an entirely creature kill deck.

    So, I agree with you that these cards in the future may be not as good to use, but for now? Assuming that this is the only set to live, it's actually pretty good.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Narziss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnAdolt View Post
    @Narziss
    You were pushing for making Portal cheaper before and clearly, Portal is widely popular rigth now and people are pushing for nerfs. Basically, my conclusion is some of your views are again based on outside perception and you haven't had more direct and indepth experiences with some of these cards.
    Considering you would always get to play first when you played against the AI in Beta, Portal never really saw any play with me in the early Beta. Even right now in pvp, if I am the one to play first, I probably won't even play Portal since it will just lose me tempo. Portal only really sees play with me when I am forced to play second; however, when I play second it is an essentially card because it is usually the only way I can counter someone else's up tempo. This is how it goes, when I play first all my Portals usually become resource fodder unless the opponent himself drops down his own Portal and has a chance of coming back. When I play second, Research and Portal are two very valuable cards while Sandra has become resource fodder since I no longer care about tempo but rather card advantage.

    Nevertheless, even back in beta, once I put the fact that all allies essentially have first strike as attackers, I give Portal credit as being better than Fires of Yavimaya, which itself was an extremely broken card. I saw the potential in Portal. The card just didn't excite me because it was really useless in pve.

    Your conclusion about my knowledge and preconceptions is wrong and my evidence is my pvp ranking in Shadow Era and the fact I win nine out of ten games. My card rankings and ratings come from pvp experience in Shadow Era. What I've stated now has to do with how good cards are in pvp (back then I was analyzing how good cards were in pve).


    Let me make an aside about something that makes Shadow Era stand out from games like Magic the Gathering. In Magic the Gathering you had to make a deck that was good in one way and specialized in winning that way. Shadow Era is awesome because you can make a deck that is good in two ways (at gaining tempo and gaining card advantage) and then you can tactically choose which way you want to play in the moment, based on the situation, and use all the other cards as resources. So like I said in the example, you can play first dropping down a Blake, then an Aldon, then a Sandra, then another Sandra or two Blakes or a Blake and a new Aldon, etc. Or you can play second and drop down a Research, then draw a card, then cast a Portal or Lightning Strike, then a Lightning Strike or Portal, then drop down some allies. The first method gives you huge tempo; the second method gives you huge card advantage. In either case, the other's cards become resources.


    Oh, and one other piece of advice is that every competitive player should really really keep a no more than 30 card deck, since the more cards you add, the less of a chance you have of getting to your best cards. And don't worry, you won't run out, I've killed plenty of Darkclaws before running out of cards.
    Last edited by Narziss; 02-25-2011 at 09:31 PM.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Fry's Avatar
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    Think of it this way: if you play Belladonna on turn 4, she can attack on turn 5. If you play Portal on 4 and Belladonna on 5, you still get to attack with Belladonna on 5, but she wasn't sitting in play with her measly 2 health waiting for your opponent to kill her. And then after that, all your other guys get haste. Portal is REALLY, REALLY good.

    BTW, you have Ter Adun rated way too low. He's certainly better than Logan (who is admittedly rather awful) and I think he's better than the Wulven heroes (although the decks are very, very different).
    Constructed deck power level should not be a consideration when setting the rarity of a card.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Narziss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fry View Post
    Think of it this way: if you play Belladonna on turn 4, she can attack on turn 5. If you play Portal on 4 and Belladonna on 5, you still get to attack with Belladonna on 5, but she wasn't sitting in play with her measly 2 health waiting for your opponent to kill her. And then after that, all your other guys get haste. Portal is REALLY, REALLY good.

    BTW, you have Ter Adun rated way too low. He's certainly better than Logan (who is admittedly rather awful) and I think he's better than the Wulven heroes (although the decks are very, very different).
    I won't deny you that I take Portal to be really good, and great to have for particular situations. I put it #3 on my card rankings. Nevertheless, if you are playing a tempo game, playing Portal on turn 4 and then playing, for example, an Aldon and Blake on turn 5 may sound good, but it also gives you -1 card advantage. That extra card could have been something that helps deal damage and kill off the opponent or a Sandra. in fact, to go to your example in which you'd play a Portal turn 4 and a Belladonna turn 5, but what about if you played first this game and you had a Portal and a Sandra in your hand? Which would be a much better move if you are on turn 4? If you played first, and if you had Sandra and a Portal in your hand, I'd use the Portal as resource and drop down the Sandra to gain tempo. Sometimes I rather use that Portal as a resource so I can kill my opponent really fast (that is, only in cases where I play first and I go for winning by tempo).

    You're right about Ter Adun, I'll adjust him accordingly. I hadn't really paid attention to those guys since I first made the list.



    Going back to the list of things I said people should consider, one thing I forgot to include was:

    5. Resource Curve (This is basically a subfield of tempo, which basically reminds you to not have too many expensive cards or too many cheap cards but to balance your deck such that you are doing something appropriate to how much resource is available to you on each turn).
    Last edited by Narziss; 02-25-2011 at 10:00 PM.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Fry's Avatar
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    OK, in the short run yes, you are -1 card on portal, but on turn 6 when you drop two Gargoyles or a Plasma Behemoth and swing with them the same turn, it's like you bought yourself a Fireball (so you're back to even on cards AND you're ahead on mana/tempo) and every subsequent creature you play comes with a no-mana, no-draw required Fireball. I think it's misleading to say "Portal is -1 card" particularly when you effectively recoup the cards and a bunch of mana (which translates easily into board position or dead opponent, as necessary) in very short order.
    Constructed deck power level should not be a consideration when setting the rarity of a card.
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  9. #19
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    I disagree with the 1 rating for Valiant Defender and similar cards. It's sometimes Warrior's only defense against Portal and it can let you get back in the game instead of taking the cheesy auto-lose. Even without going against Portal, it's still useful if you happen to go 2nd that duel, letting you not be as weak against an opponent's setup field.

    I agree on most other scores on the list, though.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Narziss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fry View Post
    OK, in the short run yes, you are -1 card on portal, but on turn 6 when you drop two Gargoyles or a Plasma Behemoth and swing with them the same turn, it's like you bought yourself a Fireball (so you're back to even on cards AND you're ahead on mana/tempo) and every subsequent creature you play comes with a no-mana, no-draw required Fireball. I think it's misleading to say "Portal is -1 card" particularly when you effectively recoup the cards and a bunch of mana (which translates easily into board position or dead opponent, as necessary) in very short order.
    I don't disagree with you. And as an aside, I think it is interesting that you are making your point with Shadow allies and I am making it with Human allies. Nevertheless, you do see my point if you are faced with the decision to play a Portal or a Sandra on your 4th turn (if you are the one who went first at the start of the game).

    Maybe to make my point clearer, let me exaggerate by stipulating this situation. Your played first. You have a Blake and an Aldon in play. It is your fourth turn and you have 3 resources in play and you are about to sacrifice a card for an extra resource. You have four cards in your hand and they are Research, Portal, Sandra, and another ally. I would most likely sacrifice Portal and then play Sandra. Then if "another ally" was a Sandra or if I drew a Sandra, I would play the second Sandra on turn 5 (or I would drop a replacement Aldon on turn 5 if the "other ally" was an Aldon and I didn't have a second Sandra, since Aldon is usually the first to get targeted by direct damage). I have gotten several shut outs where I kill the opponent without losing a single point of life by getting unstoppable tempo this way.

    The sort of game you are describing sounds like the person went second, which by all means I nearly always drop a portal when I am forced to play second. My case was only for certain scenarios where you play first and have the opportunity to get a huge edge on your opponent by speeding up while stalling them.
    Last edited by Narziss; 02-25-2011 at 10:49 PM.

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