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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montag451 View Post
    Let me ask you this, if they did these nerfs, how would you even change your deck while keeping the same type (control)?

    It's not like you'd have any other options besides changing to a different deck type, or changing to a new deck all together, and in both cases it'd be pretty clear that the nerfs were overkill if the deck can't remain competitive.
    Some decks are not meant to be. You see this in MTG as well where sometimes an entire set is more or less tailored to take away the power of a specific deck in extended format. Since this is a completely digital game however, we have the choice of simply nerfing the deck instead

  2. #22
    Senior Member jiminee's Avatar
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    Upvote for warning.

  3. #23
    Senior Member BadKarma's Avatar
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    Most suggestions feel about right.

    Heroes with double damage are exceedingly annoying because they make many weapons useless for the others. +1 or even +2 damage would be okayish, but x2 is a dealbreaker for big weapons (which would be a very good addition).

    However, I'm not a fan of the proposed changes for elemental heroes. As a former player of Zaladar, I do agree elemental cards are sometimes too powerful, but at first glance the proposed nerfs are over the top.

    - Transference is almost perfect as it is, precisely because it forces your opponent to trash whatever is not necessary. The value of this card is as much in psychological pressure as in the actual card transfer. The biggest problem with Transference is Discharge and Mind Control (screwed if you play your cards, screwed if you don't).

    - Mind Control is too powerful because there is no way to dispell it. Increasing its cost would make it useless so I would better have it work only for one turn (with no summoning sickness), then kill the creature controlled (still powerful, but not a permanent swap).

    - As for Discharge, there is no way you can balance properly such a huge one-side board sweep. IMHO, the effect should be changed entirely (clone of Tidal Wave, or higher cost and destruction of all allies + items on both sides).
    Last edited by BadKarma; 03-28-2011 at 05:15 PM. Reason: spelling
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Montag451's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duze View Post
    Some decks are not meant to be. You see this in MTG as well where sometimes an entire set is more or less tailored to take away the power of a specific deck in extended format. Since this is a completely digital game however, we have the choice of simply nerfing the deck instead
    1. This isn't some expansion that can change the meta by countering popular decks, this is the BASE set. You need a variety of viable decks, not shut them down.
    2. Control is clearly one of the main elements of Elementals (pun not intended), removing their ability to make a control deck takes away one of the only deck types you can make with them.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montag451 View Post
    1. This isn't some expansion that can change the meta by countering popular decks, this is the BASE set. You need a variety of viable decks, not shut them down.
    2. Control is clearly one of the main elements of Elementals (pun not intended), removing their ability to make a control deck takes away one of the only deck types you can make with them.
    Making a deck win 50% of matches instead of 80% is not shutting it down The proposed changes would not make the deck unusable, it would just make it less insanely good - Thereby making the game more fun.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Montag451's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duze View Post
    Making a deck win 50% of matches instead of 80% is not shutting it down
    Only 50% wins is not what most would consider competitive. Also, I'm pretty sure you pulled those numbers out of thin air
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  7. #27
    Senior Member Calmdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montag451 View Post
    Let me ask you this, if they did these nerfs, how would you even change your deck while keeping the same type (control)?

    It's not like you'd have any other options besides changing to a different deck type, or changing to a new deck all together, and in both cases it'd be pretty clear that the nerfs were overkill if the deck can't remain competitive.
    That was the point I was making; I would still consider the deck Tier 1 with all of these nerfs, with no changes to deck composition - rather than right now, where it is like Tier 1+ and is the only deck in that spot.

    Even if Mind Control cost 7, I would still run 4 because they blanket control every creature in the game. Sure, I would be less likely to hold onto them in my hand, and more likely to resource early ones, but thats good; you want people making decisions on when to use cards and when not to. I'd also still run 4 Transference, but at least I'd be burning my own deck faster and forced to make decisions regarding what to do with that card I draw, rather than ruining my opponent's strategy and turn plan completely with one, cheap card, whilst also giving myself a card advantage.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duze View Post
    Great suggestions all of them! Although I think Mind Control ends up too gimped. The upkeep idea is good, but it should be a choice each turn then. The flavor would also be supportive of this as it requires constant focus to mind control someone.

    I think the double damage heroes could be handled by simply letting it cost 2 or 3 power to activate the ability for a turn. That way there is some strategy in when to use it too, and they would not be completely overpowered
    That's probably a good starting point. 3 shadow energy=double damage until the end of the turn. You could still swing for big numbers but you wouldnt be perma-swinging for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by tangmcgame View Post
    Those are great solutions to HBM and Sandra. I think this list, overall, is fantastic, though I think it might be better to try Mind Control at 6. That's the only thing that jumped out at me as a bit too much, but I don't necessarily disagree with you, either. I just think it might be something better to inch into place.
    Definitely would be better than the current situation, although I think at 6 it is still an absolute autoinclude x4 and still forces anyone playing allies to play in a gimped way.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Montag451's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calmdown View Post
    Even if Mind Control cost 7, I would still run 4 because they blanket control every creature in the game. Sure, I would be less likely to hold onto them in my hand, and more likely to resource early ones, but thats good; you want people making decisions on when to use cards and when not to. I'd also still run 4 Transference, but at least I'd be burning my own deck faster and forced to make decisions regarding what to do with that card I draw, rather than ruining my opponent's strategy and turn plan completely with one, cheap card, whilst also giving myself a card advantage.
    Don't get me wrong, I like the change to Transference and MC could use some tweaking, I just find increasing a card's cost to be too simple and kind of barbaric in terms of balance. There's a lot of ways to balance things that are often a lot more interesting than just making it cost more (like what I and others here have suggested).
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  9. #29
    Senior Member hongkong99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadKarma View Post
    Most suggestions feel about right.

    Heroes with double damage are exceedingly annoying because they make many weapons useless for the others. +1 or even +2 damage would be okayish, but x2 is a dealbreaker for big weapons (which would be a very good addition).

    However, I'm not a fan of the proposed changes for elemental heroes. As a former player of Zaladar, I do agree elemental cards are sometimes too powerful, but at first glance the proposed nerfs is over the top. Transference is almost perfect as it is, precisely because it forces your opponent to trash whatever is not necessary. The value of this card is as much in psychological pressure as in the actual card transfer. The biggest problem with Transference is Discharge and Mind Control (screwed if you play your cards, screwed if you don't). Mind Control is too powerful because there is no way to dispell it. Increasing its cost would make it useless so I would better have it work only for one turn (with no summoning sickness), then kill the creature controlled (still powerful, but not a permanent swap). As for Discharge, there is no way you can balance properly such a huge one-side board sweep. IMHO, the effect should be changed entirely (clone of Tidal Wave, or higher cost and destruction of all allies + items on both sides).


    Transference is broken because:

    Card advantage (you get one in return, also it is something you are not supposed to put into the deck), all you spend is 3cc.


    Discharge is also power, but can be adjusted to something like: take 3 damages for each ally killed.

  10. #30
    Junior Member Maska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duze View Post
    I think the double damage heroes could be handled by simply letting it cost 2 or 3 power to activate the ability for a turn. That way there is some strategy in when to use it too, and they would not be completely overpowered
    Was going to suggest exactly the above.

    Most of the OP's suggestions are quite good, although Mind Control at 7 would be too expensive, 6 should be absolute max.

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