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  1. #331
    Senior Member A1 Seragyn's Avatar
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    Nahar, my post was not pointed at you, saying you were doing anything wrong. As far as a workaround, if a tool is broken, one finds ways to fix it no? IM not saying things should be changed right now, but we're all learning as we go along that challonge is not perfect. Busti is a great sport and a great guy, and i know from talking to him he's just as worried about it as anyone NOT in his position. Its important that we fix things instead of codify errors, that way we continue to improve the player experience.

    The problem here is nahar, with all due respect, that while we are pointing out that something is screwed up (and it is, as the problem in this tourney is performance is being based on number of wins, not points, like we normally have with swiss) you're just getting defensive and telling everyone to screw off. Its offensive and uncalled for. No-one has accused you of anything, besides perhaps just not wanting to see an issue that can be avoided in the future. The person recieving this advantage automatically faces the following issues: From this point on, no matter how well Busti does in this tourney, most people are going to scream that hes there because of the first round bye.... not because he did it himself (which he is perfectly capable/willing/able to do). So if he wins, the "value" of his win among the community is diminished.

    As far as challonge goes: Challonge does pair byes based on performance, HOWEVER, in previous tournaments that pairings were determind by points (which did not always = wins). Basing it on points means that a person receiving a by is automatically moved to a higher bracket. But I digress, Heres the real point:

    Nahar, it doesnt really matter, as TO, official rep, whatever, if you think its fair and okay... while you do make that call in this case to continue with it as is..so be it. It is your responsibility to the community, being that official tourney co-ordination is now your job, to run tournaments that the PEOPLE OF SHADOW ERA, the paying community, the consumer, the reason you have the job, feel are fair and free of bias...be it intentional or not. The appropriate response here is not..deal with it..this is how i like it.... rather..its something more along the lines of: We cant change it now for this tourney, but we can find a way to keep it from happening in the future.

    I would much rather not have had to say this here, in public, but I feel i havent been given much of a choice, considering the tone of your responses.
    Last edited by A1 Seragyn; 01-27-2013 at 09:08 PM.
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  2. #332
    Official Organised Play Specialist NaharPT's Avatar
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    Seragyn,

    It's easy to get emotionally involved when you are passionate about a subject.
    It's also very easy to be unfair, due to that.

    I knew, when accepting Wulven's invitation for this OOPS role (it's not a job - i'm not payed atm), that it would be like that.
    That no matter how hard you would try, you would never make everybody happy.

    You are entitled to your own judgements.

    I believe that i've proven in the past that i'm a reasonable person, that is capable of changing his opinion.
    I also believe that i've proven in the past that i'm a person that is capable of standing by his positions, when believing in them, without offending anyone.
    I strongly trust that those are two much needed characteristics for a TO to be able to deliver his... "job", as you call it.

    Some of the people here claim that they understand a system so well now, that they state, with no fear or reason to doubt in their minds, that it is broken.
    Some people probably think that others, thinking otherwise, are simply being stubborn, following their own selfish will.
    Those people could at least, first of all, trully try to understand why a system is what it is, before judging so straightforwardly.

    To everyone that has pointed out an argument, over this discussion, i've tried to answer with an argument back, even if that made me investigate much more about mathematical models and pairing systems than i wished for.
    I could have done it totally differently; stating nothing, not talking about it, I would let the subject die by itself.

    But as I ultimately understand everyone's point of view, i've always tried to bring arguments to the table, in this as in other threads.
    Never stating "it is what it is because i like it, i dig it, so deal with it or bail".

    But, Seragyn... people are keen on rule changes. There is ALWAYS something wrong about the models chosen.
    It's the "Search for the Holy Grail" revisited, over and over again...
    It was like that in the Regionals, it was like that in WC2012, and it will continue to be like that in the future.

    You now say, quoting, that

    Quote Originally Posted by A1 Seragyn View Post
    IM not saying things should be changed right now"
    but some posts ago, on this thread, you were not afraid to ask

    Quote Originally Posted by A1 Seragyn View Post
    Its simple, reinput all the results, and instead of a bye, have it listed as playing a player who doesnt exist. This phantom player becomes your bye for every round hes needed. The listings show he has no wins, so it doesnt help tiebreaker. The current rounds cant be fixed, but we can fix the problem from here on out this way.
    See?
    People always seem to find their perfect system, in their heads. For themselves.
    Seragyn: there is no perfect systems.
    There are systems.
    That, ofc, can be improved in the future, when broken. If broken.
    A perfect system is something to aim to, ofc, but nevertheless... a myth.

    Also about the way i see this subject, you said

    Quote Originally Posted by A1 Seragyn View Post
    No-one has accused you of anything, besides perhaps just not wanting to see an issue that can be avoided in the future.
    Regarding that, i previously stated the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by NaharPT View Post
    If you want, let's open a thread to discuss the philosophy of byes, what they mean and how to handle them...
    And also

    Quote Originally Posted by NaharPT View Post
    In fact, on a serious note, i'm tempted and will probbly email Challonge developers to try to get a full description about how Challonge system is pairing players (with or without byes). I'm pretty sure that it is doing it in the correct way of Swiss standart formats, but if I can get lucky to have a reply, then we can all be certain.
    ...
    For this tournament alone this won't change,
    ...
    I'll try to shed some light for the future over the subject with specific rullings, if I'm able to grasp them.
    So maybe that wasn't clear enough, and because of that i will repeat it: IF this system is proved to be wrong, in the future it will suffer changes. It won't suffer changes now because a) it already had undeletable impact on the current pairings, so makes no sense to change it midway, and b) is not yet proven wrong, at least to my view.

    I thank you very much for reminding me of my responsabilities towards the community, as OOPS.
    As I'm fully aware, in my role, i'm the person most interested (more than Busti or any one else), to "fix things instead of codify errors, that way we continue to improve the player experience."

    But did you or others claiming to be sure that this is a flaw, already stopped to think that there might be an explanation for what you now see as an error? And that, for as much as you can't conceive it right now, it might be fairer than the path you are proposing?

    Once more.
    As I already said.
    I'm open to
    1) fully uncover the structural rules of why is Challonge pairing the way it is, if that is so trully needed for some, to settle their minds at peace or, in other words, to prevent that "the "value" of XXXX win among the community is diminished";
    2) fully assess about it's justice or not (be, however, prepared to potentially disagree about the final decision);
    3) potentially change it, for the future, if it's proven to no doubt that the way it has been done so far is not the fairest way it would be possible to do, with the "paying community" best interest in mind. That might, however, prevent us from using Challonge again, since Challonge has only one way to deal with this situation, without workarounds: it is the way that he's using now.

    I will add nothing further about the rest of your personal considerations.
    Last edited by NaharPT; 01-28-2013 at 11:01 AM.
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  3. #333
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    I really don't think debating improvements for the future on this thread is very helpful. This is already taking up A LOT of Nahar's time, so please let him focus on running this event for now.

    There will be a time and place for feedback after the event, and Nahar will be able to give his full attention to it at that point and apply what has been learned from this whole event.

    Feel free to brainstorm amongst yourselves elsewhere in the mean time. And if anyone finds something better than Challonge, please let the community know of it.

  4. #334
    Senior Member A1 Seragyn's Avatar
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    I feel i must respond Gondorian

    1. Nahar, I agree that, for the most part ive always found you quite reasonable. It's because of that that i felt your comments and attitude were massively out of character. Yes, you said you wanted open talk, then immediately followed it by saying you would not address this issue anymore... basically shutting down any talk.

    2. My first post was written under the assumption that there was simply an oversight, not some official "ruling" on how the bye's should be paired. I assumed that if a problem could be fixed without changing any rules (which I still say it could be done without changing ANYTHING) but in your response its obvious that it went beyond that. I agree that if youve decided it needed to be an official ruling, it cant be changed now (no matter how much I or others may disagree with it).

    3. Gondorian, no one is saying challonge needs to be scrapped, though our own in house system would of COURSE be better. Instead, a fairly simply way of eliminating mismatched pairings was suggested, end of story. The response seemed to be completely out of line with the tone and intent of the suggestion, and to me, is far more troubling then the ruling itself.

    4. I agree that a feedback thread is more appropriate, however, the feedback for the wulven official spokespeople was given here... so it has continued here.

    5. As far as assuming its an error, i think its safe to say that if the shadow error community, and the people involved dont feel its right, its a safe assumption to make. Again, it doesnt matter what challonge or any other tourney system thinks is fair, its the people who play it that matter.

    6. Lastly, Nahar, my intent is not to publically bash you. We've spoken before about the hazards of TO duty, and we both know youll never make everyone happy. The only reason I said what I did here (and i dont apologize for it in the least, nor do i feel i shouldnt have noted that your responses seemed to be a bit snarky and uncalled for) was because of the public way in which you were talking down to those that felt different. I'm sure we'll both let bygones be bygones, but all of us need a little kick in the arse occasionally (myself included).
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  5. #335
    Senior Member bluebird503's Avatar
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    Since you asked for an alternative.

    https://webapp.wizards.com/DCIRUpdate/ReporterSetup.exe

    This is Magic's program to run tournaments, (warning, this link does lead to actually downloading the program)

    here is the isntructions on how to use it without DCI #s.

    When it opens and asks for your DCI login details, click cancel.

    The program will open not logged in.

    Click "Create New Event"

    Put in a name, click create.

    The event appears in your list on the main screen. Double click to open the event.

    There are 3 tabs - Event, Players and Local Players.

    Goto Local Players and click "new" at the bottom. It will ask for a DCI number, just put a 1 in for the 1st person you create, 2 for the second, etc. It will create a long number that is what it will treat as their DCI number. It doesn't have to be genuine, just a number. Put their name and surname in, click add, and voila, you have a player registered without needing a DCI number.
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  6. #336
    DP Visionary Atomzed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebird503 View Post
    Since you asked for an alternative.

    https://webapp.wizards.com/DCIRUpdate/ReporterSetup.exe

    This is Magic's program to run tournaments, (warning, this link does lead to actually downloading the program)
    Interesting to see how other TCGs handle brackets and byes.

    Does the program allows players to view the bracket without downloading the program?

    That is one of the draw of Challonge (at least for me). Be able to view the updated brackets on a mobile device or desktop.
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  7. #337
    Senior Member bluebird503's Avatar
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    I don't think so , but you can print screen the brackets after each round and post the image online,(remember we only use swiss for big tournaments anyways, most of our tournaments are single elimination, it would be easy enough) There are online variations of it that allow you too view the tournaments in progress, you just need to find them.

    This website uses MTG rules for byes/tiebreakers, and allows you to view the tournaments online. http://mtgarena.appspot.com/

    I'm sure you can find some more just using google, "mtg swiss tournament organizer"

    I think the best option would be to have a shadow era specific tournament organizer. Either built in to the game itself, etc. '

    With a new bye system hopefully
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