Close

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13
  1. #1
    Senior Member 1ndeed's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    770
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0

    My First Article - Forcing Decisions and Limiting Options Pt. 2

    Forcing Decisions and Limiting Options Pt. 2

    Note: part 1 found here: http://www.shadowera.com/showpost.php?p=312993

    3) Playing vs decks that have a balanced ally distribution
    Many decks will have a solid resource curve with regard to the allies. You may see 7-10 3cc allies, some 2cc, and a handful of fatties. This is one way that decks try to be versatile Ė now I can weenie rush with Jasmine + Aldon at any time, or I can play Sandworm + Aeon in the late game.

    Iíve seen some Banebow decks lately that carry Here Be Monsters and Cobraskin Wraps. When your opponent sees you play your first HBM, they think, ok, it is a temporary disadvantage but Iíll keep sacrificing. When they then see you play CSW on the following turn, sometimes they will just start sacrificing any fatties or high-cc armors they have in their hand.

    If you do this for enough turns throughout the game, your opponent may find that they sacrificed too many fatties, or too many win conditions. Now they have finally accumulated a respectable number of resources, only to realize that the expensive allies in their decks ARE those resources. How ironic. (The concepts of remembering what you sacrificed and understanding how your deck works wonít be discussed in this article.)

    So the situation is that you forced a specific style of sacrificing, and now your opponentís deck is less versatile, because it is filled with less fatties and more weenies.


    4) Denying Tainted Oracle
    Some decks have versatility with regard to their draw power. In my Victor deck for example I use Honored Dead, Bad Santa and Tainted Oracle. In designing my deck I thought, ok now I have versatile draw options and I can draw from numerous different circumstances. When I play Tainted Oracle and my opponent plays Dagger of Unmaking to bounce it back to my hand, my versatility with regard to draw options is hindered.

    Same thing if my opponent plays a Crippling Blow or a Retreat on my Tainted Oracle. Physically, what happened on the board is not completely devastating. Itís not going to end the game for me just because my Tainted Oracle was sent back to my hand. But subtly, what also happened is that my deck is now less versatile. I have less situations now where I can draw cards.


    5) *Storing Shadow Energy
    One thing Iíve seen various players do that kind of fits this topic is that they will save up their shadow energy, depending on your hero of course. If Lance has at least 4 SE, it really limits my options because I canít play any ally without thinking first that my opponent may have Jasmine or Raven. Eladwen also does this really well; by keeping SE stored up you can limit your opponentís options, so if Elad can kill allies without using her ability it is usually better than just blasting an ally and having uncertain defense for the following turn.


    6) Flash a Fireball
    This may not be an ideal move in all circumstances, but you can flash a Fireball to force your opponent to play a certain way. *One situation I was in where this applies:

    I am playing a mage deck against a Zhanna. In the early phases of the game, I had to sacrifice a Fireball to play something else. *Throughout the course of the game, I used one Fireball already. My opponent believes I have 2x Fireball left in my deck. Zhanna is at 6 HP, and has 3 shadow energy. I am also low on HP and it is getting to the very-late-game, where I donít want to be against a Zhanna deck.

    On my turn, I know that I am holding the last Fireball in my deck. I have used a lot of my direct damage already, and my understanding is that I will probably need to get at least one more ally to deal some damage in order to win. My opponent does not know this. My fear at this point is that Zhanna will play a bunch of allies and kill me in just a couple turns.

    At this point I will go to cast a Fireball so I make sure my opponent sees that I have one, then hesitate and play something else. To my opponent it looks like I am indecisive. But also, now the Zhanna has to be fearing 2x Fireball. So on Zhannaís turn, she will have to heal a bit. The 3cc that she spends on Healing Touch is one less 3cc ally that I have to deal with immediately. Or if she uses her ability, she will not draw a card with Wizent Staff that turn.

    So in this way you can force a specific play out of your opponent that is to your advantage. You took away her options, as she fears you will draw another Fireball and win the game next turn.

    7) Solve Your Opponent
    Lastly, figure out if your opponent has any noticeable patterns in their gameplay. If I see that EVERY time I play X, my opponent does Y, I can start thinking about how to use this to my advantage. For example sometimes I play against mages who want to kill EVERY single ally I play, even when they are ahead in HP and should be deathracing. The mage has more cards than me and is ahead by 15 HP, but still every time I play a Puwen he has to attack it with his allies. Now I know that I can force removal by playing out allies.

    ---
    The concepts of board control and card advantage are heavily discussed and are well known by tcg layers. I think that the concept of making moves that force your opponent to react in a certain way should be right up there also. It is interconnected with several other concepts of course: being the beatdown, knowing your deck, knowing the meta, etc. But the point is that you can be facing a deck that in fact has a Variety of ways to kill you, and turn it into a match where You are able to dictate what happens and when, and what does not happen.

    I will add a disclaimer that sometimes a good Eladwen player can be difficult to force in this way. I may try to throw an ally on the board to force Eladwen to use her ability, but she still has the versatility to cast something like Supernova instead of using her shadow ability.

    But the basic idea is that if you can make forceful plays on your turn and predict how your opponent will react to those plays, you can dictate how this game will be played and prepare for future turns. Now you just have to make sure you steer the game in the right way. The point is not just to throw a fatty out there to force a Mind Control so that you can say you forced your opponent to do something Ė the point is to implement the forced-reaction into your broader game plan. Meaning, I am forcing my opponent to use THIS turn to use Mind Control, so that I will have the board on turn 6 and be able to play X and Y, and get to the endgame where I will outdraw Zal, for example. The point is to manipulate the flow of the game in a direction that is beneficial to you, by limiting the options of your opponent.

    I hope you enjoyed this, and please leave feedback.
    - 1ndeed
    Last edited by 1ndeed; 01-18-2013 at 08:56 PM.
    A1 1ndeed - The Black Lotus of A1 - A1: Evolution in Theory

    And who are you, the proud lord said, that I must bow so low?
    Only a cat of a different coat, that's all the truth I know.
    In a coat of gold, or a coat of red, a lion still has claws;
    And mine are long and sharp, my lord, as long and sharp as yours.

  2. #2
    DP Visionary Mongoosey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,142
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0
    Very good read indeed 1ndeed.
    "I'll have you know I have the reflexes of a cat, and the speed of a mongoose"

    LEGEND of TEAM JUGGERNAUTS


    Recent accolades: season 5, finalist (top 8). UK streetfigher, Conquerors Bane runner-up.
    Immortalised as Flavour Winner for "Smoke Screen". Conceal, Confuse, and Obscure.

    Link to irc: http://shadowera.gondorian.com/gamechat/

  3. #3
    DP Visionary FDL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    4,188
    Tournaments Joined
    3
    Tournaments Won
    0
    Very nice job 1ndeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1ndeed View Post
    But the basic idea is that if you can make forceful plays on your turn and predict how your opponent will react to those plays, you can dictate how this game will be played and prepare for future turns.
    This is a very important concept in any kind of competition IMO and it applies itself very well to SE. You shouldn't be needlessly afraid of your opponents' strenghts but rather use them against him because they steer his playstyle in a certain direction. If I play a fatty against an Elemental he'll play Mind Control (but nothing else on that turn), if I overextend against a Mage/Priest he'll play a board wipe (and I'll then have an open field to take), etc.

    If you know how to follow up (and have the resources for it) you'll be in great position and you'll have one less key card to worry about.

    There is even a chance your opponent does not have the required card and you're now in an even better position. But don't count on this too much unless your opponent has a really small hand. Getting a key card by turn 5 is very likely in SE (at least 75% for a 4-of in a 39 card deck).

    If you hold back too much in fear of your opponent's best play, you give them an opportunity to get ahead by secondary means (i.e. Retreat! instead of Super Nova to save their own allies or DMT + Zaladar's ablity because you only played 4hp allies).

    Now don't go throwing all your allies into a Tidal Wave because of this article you just read, but learn to identify these opportunities and spring traps on your opponent.

    ps: I had to resist writing "indeed" a dozen times...
    FDL TV!

    Channel | Thread | Twitter
    Deck Techs, Game Commentary, Replay Analysis and more!

    FDL Tips: The Metagame, Balance and You || Empty Hands
    LL Decklists: Serena || Elementalis

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    484
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0
    I am not sure I see the point of your article. Basically (and don't take this the wrong way), it says a lot, but seems to offer very little in terms of practical insight, and has me going, "Um...yeah...what's your point again?"

    Sure, by blowing up my opponent's resources via cards like HBM, I can force my opponent to overextend himself by sacrificing more cards than he is otherwise prepared to, but wasn't that the whole point of adding those cards into your deck in the first place? To slow them down, thereby giving you the breathing room you need to execute whatever plan your deck was originally designed to do.

    Likewise, storing SE is not entirely opportunity-cost free. More often than not, when a hero elects not to use his ability, it is often because he is unable to, or the situation on the board is simply not threatening enough. Having Eladwen opt to hold back on SE in preparation to freeze that sandworm or plasma behemoth may mean allowing that jasmine or wulven tracker to run rampant for a few more rounds, and that can just as easily cost you the game on the long run.

    I find that for the moment at least, the structure of Shadow Era does not really lend itself to much flexibility in deck-building, largely because the entire faction/hero system imposes a hard limit on what sort of cards can interact with one another. So there are really only so many ways a player can respond to you (and vice versa), without needing to think that overly hard (and indeed, by overthinking, you may be playing right into your opponent's trap).

    In summary, your entire article can be summarised into 2 words - "It depends". And if you manage to "force" a player into a certain style of play, that is likely only because your deck is simply working as intended, and the alternative is far worse for him (e.g.: holding on to fatties means choking on resources and further losing board control".)

    Instead, your article may be better served as a series of standalone pieces, each devoted to analyzing a certain scenario. Eg: You are facing a priest. How do you play around tidal wave (or how/should you adjust your playstyle suspecting fully well that your opponent is packing 4 tidal waves?).
    Last edited by abazigal; 12-21-2012 at 12:38 AM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member 1ndeed's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    770
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0
    Very good read indeed 1ndeed.
    glad you enjoyed it, thanks for reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fou DeLile View Post
    Very nice job 1ndeed.



    This is a very important concept in any kind of competition IMO and it applies itself very well to SE. You shouldn't be needlessly afraid of your opponents' strenghts but rather use them against him because they steer his playstyle in a certain direction. If I play a fatty against an Elemental he'll play Mind Control (but nothing else on that turn), if I overextend against a Mage/Priest he'll play a board wipe (and I'll then have an open field to take), etc.

    If you know how to follow up (and have the resources for it) you'll be in great position and you'll have one less key card to worry about.

    There is even a chance your opponent does not have the required card and you're now in an even better position. But don't count on this too much unless your opponent has a really small hand. Getting a key card by turn 5 is very likely in SE (at least 75% for a 4-of in a 39 card deck).

    If you hold back too much in fear of your opponent's best play, you give them an opportunity to get ahead by secondary means (i.e. Retreat! instead of Super Nova to save their own allies or DMT + Zaladar's ablity because you only played 4hp allies).

    Now don't go throwing all your allies into a Tidal Wave because of this article you just read, but learn to identify these opportunities and spring traps on your opponent.

    ps: I had to resist writing "indeed" a dozen times...
    right on! strong decks also have the weakness that they are predictable. now, if they are still unbeatable even when they are so predictable, then there is a balancing issue. i do't think we have that in SE right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by abazigal View Post
    I am not sure I see the point of your article. Basically (and don't take this the wrong way), it says a lot, but seems to offer very little in terms of practical insight, and has me going, "Um...yeah...what's your point again?"

    Sure, by blowing up my opponent's resources via cards like HBM, I can force my opponent to overextend himself by sacrificing more cards than he is otherwise prepared to, but wasn't that the whole point of adding those cards into your deck in the first place? To slow them down, thereby giving you the breathing room you need to execute whatever plan your deck was originally designed to do.

    Likewise, storing SE is not entirely opportunity-cost free. More often than not, when a hero elects not to use his ability, it is often because he is unable to, or the situation on the board is simply not threatening enough. Having Eladwen opt to hold back on SE in preparation to freeze that sandworm or plasma behemoth may mean allowing that jasmine or wulven tracker to run rampant for a few more rounds, and that can just as easily cost you the game on the long run.

    I find that for the moment at least, the structure of Shadow Era does not really lend itself to much flexibility in deck-building, largely because the entire faction/hero system imposes a hard limit on what sort of cards can interact with one another. So there are really only so many ways a player can respond to you (and vice versa), without needing to think that overly hard (and indeed, by overthinking, you may be playing right into your opponent's trap).

    In summary, your entire article can be summarised into 2 words - "It depends". And if you manage to "force" a player into a certain style of play, that is likely only because your deck is simply working as intended, and the alternative is far worse for him (e.g.: holding on to fatties means choking on resources and further losing board control".)

    Instead, your article may be better served as a series of standalone pieces, each devoted to analyzing a certain scenario. Eg: You are facing a priest. How do you play around tidal wave (or how/should you adjust your playstyle suspecting fully well that your opponent is packing 4 tidal waves?).
    i have to ask, did you read Pt. 1 of the article? - http://www.shadowera.com/showthread....g-Options-Pt-1
    Last edited by 1ndeed; 12-21-2012 at 12:51 AM.
    A1 1ndeed - The Black Lotus of A1 - A1: Evolution in Theory

    And who are you, the proud lord said, that I must bow so low?
    Only a cat of a different coat, that's all the truth I know.
    In a coat of gold, or a coat of red, a lion still has claws;
    And mine are long and sharp, my lord, as long and sharp as yours.

  6. #6
    DP Visionary Preybird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    9,046
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0
    Good stuff man, when can we expect a part 3?
    Extra Tough Claws - Proud Member of ETC

    Articles | Decklist | Fan Fiction

    Shadow Era Art Thread | PB @ DeviantArt

    PFG Member | I've been interviewed!

  7. #7
    DP Visionary Demnchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    North Carolina, USA (GMT -4)
    Posts
    5,858
    Tournaments Joined
    8
    Tournaments Won
    1
    I enjoyed the article. Thanks for writing it up. The Elementalis deck you faced in regionals (against me) was designed to essentially do this. I'll be posting that deck as soon as I've ironed out the rest of the kinks with suggestions from my guild mates.
    Was the Leader of Acolytes of A1

    A1's Dimensional Eyes in the Sky
    A1 Alliance: Evolution in Theory
    PFG3 Leader

    Was Shadow Era Community Manager

    Sota, The Switch Axe Monster Hunter

    "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."
    "Humans fight to secure peace as they envision it. The trouble is, everyone's vision is different." - Ringabel

  8. #8
    Senior Member Zhou86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Malaysia (GMT+8)
    Posts
    6,304
    Tournaments Joined
    2
    Tournaments Won
    0
    Once again, well written.
    Psalm 91:7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you.

    Zhou - Servant of the Eternal Saviour
    Warrior of the Blue Phoenix
    Greatness, Reborn.

    IGN | BP Zhou | Information on my Guild | Group | SE Players of Malaysia | Tournaments | BP Popup #37

    BP Hispanic | Link a la rama hispana de BP
    SE Achievements | Full List
    Articles/Guides | FAQs for New Players and Forum Goers

  9. #9
    Senior Member qaz92zaq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NJ GMT -5
    Posts
    1,502
    Tournaments Joined
    4
    Tournaments Won
    0
    Interesting article(s).
    It is tricky advice to follow though as it also limits your own win conditions somewhat. Also against many decks it is very hard to do as there are many ways to respond to your hopefully forcing move (or sometimes you are up against a one trick pony that just does it very well so they will do the same moves irrelevant of what you do). Still great advice for playing priests where forcing the TWs to be played when you want tends to lead to a very comfortable game.

  10. #10
    Senior Member 1ndeed's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    770
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by qaz92zaq View Post
    Interesting article(s).
    It is tricky advice to follow though as it also limits your own win conditions somewhat. Also against many decks it is very hard to do as there are many ways to respond to your hopefully forcing move (or sometimes you are up against a one trick pony that just does it very well so they will do the same moves irrelevant of what you do). Still great advice for playing priests where forcing the TWs to be played when you want tends to lead to a very comfortable game.
    Ty.

    Giving your opponent options is good too. The more choices they have to make, the more mistakes they will make over time. Esp when you know your deck better than they do.
    A1 1ndeed - The Black Lotus of A1 - A1: Evolution in Theory

    And who are you, the proud lord said, that I must bow so low?
    Only a cat of a different coat, that's all the truth I know.
    In a coat of gold, or a coat of red, a lion still has claws;
    And mine are long and sharp, my lord, as long and sharp as yours.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •