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  1. #1
    Senior Member MistahBoweh's Avatar
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    How to Make the Best Swiss Format?

    because apparently, not even the people behind the event want to make a thread for this, I have to do it.

    Real quick, the two sides:

    On the one hand, intentional draws are being viewed as bad for the game and should be removed. The other side is asking how the hell to do this, as it's an established system for a reason. Many before have tried to find a strictly better alternative and all have failed.

    Discuss.
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  2. #2
    DP Visionary Atomzed's Avatar
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    Let me explain my POV for this regionals at least.

    The current regionals is BO3, all draws are to be replayed. Which means that there will be a clear winner.

    But the intentional draws which is allowed break the norm of a clear winner.

    Draws only occurs when players don't play each other and the TO cannot fault any player for it. And this is where I agree with Seragyn, it can be determined when a player puts in more effort than the other guy.

    Hence , allowing for ID in a BO3 doesn't makes sense.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member MistahBoweh's Avatar
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    Personally, I am in the 'how is it done' camp. I'm asking for actual, tested solutions and not hearing responses. Don't get me wrong, I will ID when it's convenient, but I also cover events, and as a spectator IDs always leave a sour taste in my mouth. I still think, however, that swiss with a top cut is the best way to do these events. I just don't think there's a good enough alternative out there, but I am willing to look at potential solutions.

    I think part of the problem that makes IDs look pretty bad for Shadow Era is how results are posted staggeringly, not all at once at the end of a round like other games. When everyone who is going to ID does so early, it gives this extra sense of hopelessness to the poeple who would otherwise be in the running. If events were held live and results were held back, it would be a much different environment. Not only is the sense of hope now there, but due to being faster as a format, there's less time to work out tournament math and figure out if drawing in is safe or not. IDs no longer become an easy matter and it actually takes some degree of skill to puzzle it all out.

    It would still be an issue, yes, but the convoluted execution of SE events is what's crippling it right now. This will change in the future (to my knowledge), and it will help things drastically.

    So, my question is to the other camp, how do you improve upon this tried and tested system? Yes, not everyone likes it, even in other games that have a normal, live execution. Still, all those haters have yet to come up with a better alternative that works well for players, spectators, and organizers.
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  4. #4
    DP Visionary Atomzed's Avatar
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    I thinking. And reading. will get back when I have some hopefully bright idea.

    But pls help me understand why a ID should work with a BO3 format where draws are replayed?
    A1's Mustard-Seed Knight of Hope (IGN:A1 atomzed)
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  5. #5
    Senior Member MistahBoweh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomzed View Post
    I thinking. And reading. will get back when I have some hopefully bright idea.

    But pls help me understand why a ID should work with a BO3 format where draws are replayed?
    Because even if draws are replayed, there's still a limited amount of time in the round. Hypothetically speaking, if some combo by either side (or an interaction between both sides) causes a draw, such as a millstalker mirror with LW where it's literally impossible for either player to win, this results in a draw no matter how many games are played out. If you refuse any draws in an event, intentional or not, that means you're forcing losses on both of these players who were both there, both played, and both legitimately earned their one point.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Zeuhl's Avatar
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    some reference:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draw_by...ment#Etiquette

    http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4513

    An idea:

    How about changing it to Bo5 and players can only offer a draw if the series is tied. This is at 1-1 or 2-2 set score.

  7. #7
    Senior Member MistahBoweh's Avatar
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    The problem with this Jose is that will not stop intentional draws. In the same way that you can play with the intent of creating a scenario that causes a draw, you could play out a scenario that causes a 1-1 or 2-2 or whatever result and then draw it. The problem isn't just forcing people to play, as that causes the same result. The trick is forcing people to play to the best of their ability.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Tyr Anasazi's Avatar
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    I think the key to solving this problem is in the pairing method.

    The goal of Swiss format pairing is to determine a single winner, not top 8. In that case, pairing winners with winners makes sense. Because it guarantees that after 6 rounds there will be only one last winner.

    If there is no incentitive to be the no.1, meaning being no.8 is just as good, then two 4-1 players shouldn't be paired in the last round at all.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member MistahBoweh's Avatar
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    What algorythm do you suggest for arranging pairings, then? Because pairing invertedly, IE best against worst, hardly makes for an accurate test of skills.
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  10. #10
    Devoted Fan Gondorian's Avatar
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    I renamed the thread btw.

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