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  1. #311
    DP Visionary Atomzed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistahBoweh View Post
    ...no. I said it's good you AREN'T saying that. The exact opposite. It was supposed to be a compliment. Read the first sentence there again.

    'I appreciate you trying not to bring personal results into it.'
    I read It, but i couldnt tell whether you were being sarcastic.

    It's hard not to misread the whole para, when 90% of the para is implying something that is different from the first sentence.
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  2. #312
    Senior Member Zhou86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flycheung View Post
    I would like to bring out the issue about 'drops out' and 'auto wins' though. While I believe in this current swiss format, the drops out *did* not affect the outcome, if at all. I still think it's an issue need to address far greater than ID, moreso in other tournament format. :]

    It's worst than what Boweh cited below, in that x and y person couldn't do anything yet being affected by A person who drops out thus awarding auto-win to B person.
    Agreed with this. In Americas alone there are currently 18 drop outs. Europe/Africa 9 dropouts and Asia 3. Its sad to lose to the person on the first few rounds only to realised that he dropped out and award auto-wins to his remaining opponents and dampen your chances.
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  3. #313
    Moderator danae's Avatar
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    Something to try out in future tournaments is that Intentional Draws get awarded no points at all. Why should you get +1 points for doing nothing at all? If it was a 4 game match then a +1 for the draw is fine as long as the games are played.

  4. #314
    Senior Member Maldazar's Avatar
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    I'm totaly against intencional draw, because it does cheat the system and it will give the wrong top 8.

    The top 8 should be the people that managed to win most and lose less in 6 rounds, 6, not 5. The problem is that, with how the system is build right now, you are not forced to play that last round if you are already in top 8 because you can just go on for free by accepting a draw.. Why is this wrong?

    Because there is a high chance that some other played, that is beter then you, had like 2 terrible matchups that he lost (2-1 in both of them), but won all his other matches 2-0 (even the 6th round), but then you, that is at 4-1-0 just decide to draw, removing the chance of that beter player to get in..

    Basicly I think that anyone that accepts a draw to get into the top 8, because else there was a chance that he would not get in if he lost, is just a player that does not trust enough in his own skills/ability to play and knows that there is a big chance that he would not be able to EARN his place in the top 8, so he cheats the system in order to get that place because he got lucky to play against easier players in his first matches (or get very lucky draw or have his opponent have bad draw).

    I'm not attacking anyone personal here, but this is how I feel about the intencional draws and I would NEVER accept a draw when there was the possibility to play, just because I would feel very dirty if this made me go on while another player that actualy played all his matches had no more chance because of this...

    Again, just my oppinion.
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  5. #315
    CotC Sealed Deck Champion busti's Avatar
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    Allowing intentional draw = encouraging match fixing;
    I can't disagree more with the argument 'it's hard to enforce 0 match fixing, let's make it official' it feels so wrong.
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  6. #316
    Senior Member MistahBoweh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldazar View Post
    I'm totaly against intencional draw, because it does cheat the system and it will give the wrong top 8.

    The top 8 should be the people that managed to win most and lose less in 6 rounds, 6, not 5. The problem is that, with how the system is build right now, you are not forced to play that last round if you are already in top 8 because you can just go on for free by accepting a draw.. Why is this wrong?

    Because there is a high chance that some other played, that is beter then you, had like 2 terrible matchups that he lost (2-1 in both of them), but won all his other matches 2-0 (even the 6th round), but then you, that is at 4-1-0 just decide to draw, removing the chance of that beter player to get in..

    Basicly I think that anyone that accepts a draw to get into the top 8, because else there was a chance that he would not get in if he lost, is just a player that does not trust enough in his own skills/ability to play and knows that there is a big chance that he would not be able to EARN his place in the top 8, so he cheats the system in order to get that place because he got lucky to play against easier players in his first matches (or get very lucky draw or have his opponent have bad draw).
    The problem with this logic is that you assume the only skill in SE involves game play, which is not true. there's also deck construction, meta analysis, etc. If you pick a deck with an auto-loss matchup, that was your choice. Why should you get in if your gamble doesn't pay off? Because that's what it is, a gamble. If you pick a deck with bad matchups and another player analyzes the field correctly and picks a deck with less bad matchups, why should you get in over them?

    The purpose of top 8 is to find a pool of 8 strong players, yes. But a measure of the player's skill starts with deck choice, even before the event begins.

    You are correct, there is some degree of chance involved. This is a card game. What card game has no chance involved? It's the same as any game with dice, or a spinner, or any other form of randomization. Even in chess, checkers, whatever, which has no random occurrence during gameplay itself, there needs to be some way to determine who plays first and that will happen at random. If you think that chance does not belong in a game of chance, my suggestion is to go find another hobby.
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  7. #317
    Senior Member Oblio91's Avatar
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    @Atomized
    I wasn't at any point trying to disparage your position or imply that it was motivated from anything other than trying to improve our current system. I just think the issues that Fly pointed out with dropouts and FTA are far more problematic and unfair and I have watched small chess communities argue for the abolition of intentional draws in an attempt to add drama to swiss tournaments. When you step back the Swiss actually worked pretty well aside from a hiccup with the tiebeaker rules. My feeling is that forcing people to play out would actually change very little in terms of overall fairness and possibly make it worse...but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. I said elsewhere that the format that I have found the most challenging and rewarding to date was Slugfest. It incorporated so many different facets of what makes this game interesting. How would you run that as a larger tournament? No idea...I'm not that smart. My point is I'm willing to think outside the box to find a tournament structure that brings the best out of this game. I know you are too. I'm going to head back to my continent. I will see you around.
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  8. #318
    Senior Member Maldazar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistahBoweh View Post
    The problem with this logic is that you assume the only skill in SE involves game play, which is not true. there's also deck construction, meta analysis, etc. If you pick a deck with an auto-loss matchup, that was your choice. Why should you get in if your gamble doesn't pay off? Because that's what it is, a gamble. If you pick a deck with bad matchups and another player analyzes the field correctly and picks a deck with less bad matchups, why should you get in over them?

    The purpose of top 8 is to find a pool of 8 strong players, yes. But a measure of the player's skill starts with deck choice, even before the event begins.

    You are correct, there is some degree of chance involved. This is a card game. What card game has no chance involved? It's the same as any game with dice, or a spinner, or any other form of randomization. Even in chess, checkers, whatever, which has no random occurrence during gameplay itself, there needs to be some way to determine who plays first and that will happen at random. If you think that chance does not belong in a game of chance, my suggestion is to go find another hobby.
    Again, I will disagree... The entire idea of having 6 rounds and not 5 is to reduce the amount of luck involved, someone can have 2 bad matches (bad luck), but still have won all his other matches (2-0 in all) and only lost 2-1 the games that he got bad luck, then he is in a 3-2 situations (after 5 matches), but still in an OK place, because, if he wins his 6th match (and imagine that he does, with another 2-0) his tie-breaking record is perfect, so he should get in anyway, because he has proven, in the 6th rounds, that even with some bad luck, he is a very good player.

    By mkaing it a 5 round tournament (because that is what it is becoming) luck factor becomes A LOT higher. So yes, it is RIDICULOUSLY lame AND unfair. Because yes, everyone sometimes has some bad matchups OR bad luck (even with the heroes that have LESS bad matchups, they still have bad matchups.) but right now, the players that got lucky to not have bad luck in initial rounds, also eliminate the bad luck by not playing the last match, so basicly, if you have bad luck in some early matches, that bad luck counts as double, because you will not have the chance to make up for it later on, while if you got lucky early on, you don't even need to take the risk of having bad luck later on (or just normal luck but have your opponent out play you).

    So basicly this format is highering the amount of players that get in by luck and lowering the amount of players that get in my skill.

    I'm NOT attacking anyone personal, certainly there are very good players out there that got in, but I think with more rounds (specialy with also the 6th round being played) the results would be more accurate.

    And that is just pure math. More matches = less luck (that is why we play best of 3 and not single match, or even best of 5/7 in finals) So less rounds = more luck.. and that is what is happening right now.. and that is LAME, specialy for a world championships.

    (i would actualy be in favor to RAISE the amount of rounds to like 8, to eliminate even further the luck and get even more accurate results on the top 8....)
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  9. #319
    Official Organised Play Specialist NaharPT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldazar View Post
    Again, I will disagree... The entire idea of having 6 rounds and not 5 is to reduce the amount of luck involved, someone can have 2 bad matches (bad luck), but still have won all his other matches (2-0 in all) and only lost 2-1 the games that he got bad luck, then he is in a 3-2 situations (after 5 matches), but still in an OK place, because, if he wins his 6th match (and imagine that he does, with another 2-0) his tie-breaking record is perfect, so he should get in anyway, because he has proven, in the 6th rounds, that even with some bad luck, he is a very good player.

    By mkaing it a 5 round tournament (because that is what it is becoming) luck factor becomes A LOT higher. So yes, it is RIDICULOUSLY lame AND unfair. Because yes, everyone sometimes has some bad matchups OR bad luck (even with the heroes that have LESS bad matchups, they still have bad matchups.) but right now, the players that got lucky to not have bad luck in initial rounds, also eliminate the bad luck by not playing the last match, so basicly, if you have bad luck in some early matches, that bad luck counts as double, because you will not have the chance to make up for it later on, while if you got lucky early on, you don't even need to take the risk of having bad luck later on (or just normal luck but have your opponent out play you).

    So basicly this format is highering the amount of players that get in by luck and lowering the amount of players that get in my skill.

    I'm NOT attacking anyone personal, certainly there are very good players out there that got in, but I think with more rounds (specialy with also the 6th round being played) the results would be more accurate.

    And that is just pure math. More matches = less luck (that is why we play best of 3 and not single match, or even best of 5/7 in finals) So less rounds = more luck.. and that is what is happening right now.. and that is LAME, specialy for a world championships.

    (i would actualy be in favor to RAISE the amount of rounds to like 8, to eliminate even further the luck and get even more accurate results on the top 8....)
    Understandind what you are stating, buddy, i'd like to state that most TCG tourneys (if not almost all), all over the world, accept intentional draw as a possible outcome of any round.

    I dont want to elaborate much philosophy around what this means or doesnt mean of a player: it was a very clear rule since the beggining, and i believe that every player who accepted to play these Regionals knew about it since the beggining.

    I think we just went here for a tested and proven format, used in decades with proven results, in what regards to formal and professional TCG competitions.
    Is it good? Is it bad? Can it be improved? Well, probbly.
    It is, however, very, very much tested.
    And it stood test of time so far...

    Doesnt mean it cant be improved, however.
    Just stating that we shoudnt be here trying to invent the wheel again... particularly if one is not involved in the top8 with the current system.
    I haven't seen anyone complaining when tourney started and everyone could still get a spot. :P (no provocation intended here. )

    P.S. All this said, i do understand the frustration of trying to reach top places and playing and winning, to see players that are above you just tie their way to the finals. I do. It is, however, their right to do it, as it was yours if you were in their shoes, right?

    P.S.S. One other thing. Not stating any names here, ofc, but i was able to watch (as i'm required to periodically check replays, as TO), in these Regionals, excellent matches that players (that, some, are currently now in top 8) won pretty bad matchups to their heroes.
    Yes, Lady Luck will always have a role in this game, either in matchup pairing, in card drawing, in who starts first... that is part of the game we all love, right? I still believe that skill can overcome some of that luck, as i've seen happen to many players in this event. So let's not put all in Lady's back, as if this was simply a random format, never used or never tested, shall we?
    Last edited by NaharPT; 12-04-2012 at 11:50 AM.
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  10. #320
    Senior Member Maldazar's Avatar
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    Honestly, I find any coment like: "This is a format used a lot, so its beter not change it" RIDICULOUS

    Come with REAL facts, and not that others use it too, explain to me, WHY it is more fair to allow those draws in order to cheat the system into the top 8 when you are maybe not one of the top 8 beter then having everyone play all the 6 matches and have a real result?

    If you can explain that to me, I will except this format as being the best... but saying others use it so its the best is not an argument...
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