Close

Page 34 of 42 FirstFirst ... 243233343536 ... LastLast
Results 331 to 340 of 413
  1. #331
    Senior Member MistahBoweh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    2,453
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ethicality

    I'm serious. Why do you think, in your mind, it's okay to force people to do things against their will that have the potential to be harmful to themselves?
    MistahBoweh - Paragon of Paragons
    Warrior of the Blue Phoenix
    Greatness, Reborn

    My Strategy Site: The Boweh
    Latest Article: USED: MistahBoweh VS SamuelJ

  2. #332
    Senior Member A1 Seragyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    412
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0
    ROFL Wow, okay... no-one is saying you should be forced to "harm" yourself. They are saying that matches should be played.

    Using your little definition, forcing say..a politician not to stuff ballots, or a leader not to slaughter his opposition would be "harmful" to him, and therefor unethical, because not doing so might endanger their chances of power... If you want a philosophical debate we can do that, but lets try and be grounded in reality first.


    @Nahar: Frankly, i find it insulting that you assume im annoyed by this rule because it hurts my chances, while it does, if I had actually known intentional draws were being allowed i would have said something, you cant say that the mass drawing does not make any round past 4 entirely useless, and therefore a waste of everyone's time. I cant very well debate a ruling before hand that is A: not specifically mentioned, and B: not known to happen in such HUGE amounts.

    EDIT to EDIT: Re-reading the rules i see intentional draws are included, though i could swear they werent originally, though its possible I overlooked them. I do seem to remember, however, during the swiss rounds of the WC this summer that there were issues over players not playing their games and intentionally tying, and that the organizers explicitly said there that all matches had to be played.
    Last edited by A1 Seragyn; 12-04-2012 at 01:49 PM.
    "It gives me a headache just trying to think down to your level."

    A1's Paraniod Android


    http://www.a1-alliance.org/

  3. #333
    Official Organised Play Specialist NaharPT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    1,949
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by A1 Seragyn View Post
    They are saying that matches should be played.
    I personally do tend to agree with this.

    The million dollar question, particularly for the future, is: How to enforce that?
    Ex-Official Organised Play Specialist (OOPS)

    Elder(Alumni) of Team Juggernauts - TJ
    Ancient Member of PFG

    IGN: NaharPT
    Live Server with Chat-room
    Test Server with Chat-room

  4. #334
    Official Organised Play Specialist NaharPT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    1,949
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by A1 Seragyn View Post

    @Nahar: Frankly, i find it insulting that you assume im annoyed by this rule because it hurts my chances, while it does, if I had actually known intentional draws were being allowed i would have said something, you cant say that the mass drawing does not make any round past 4 entirely useless, and therefore a waste of everyone's time. I cant very well debate a ruling before hand that is A: not specifically mentioned, and B: not known to happen in such HUGE amounts.
    You might feel insulted, if you really want to. I already stated i had no intention to provocate/insult anyone. I'm just stating a fact, already stated by others too: there are ppl complaining about this only when the end of the tourney is about to come, and their chances of getting top 8 are slim to none.
    If you want to be insulted by a fact, you can. But pls dont, since it wasn't my intention.

    Regarding you argument, i would advise you to carefully read the rules, next time.
    That information was posted by GDC in the proper thread, since minute zero of this Tourneys, as can be seen in the following link.

    http://www.shadowera.com/showthread....s-(Winter-2012), post #2.

    HOW POINTS ARE SCORED

    * You can score a maximum of 3 points each round.
    * You get 3 points for winning the match and 0 points for losing the match.
    * If both players consent to an intentional draw, then they get 1 point each.


    About the fact that you didnt knew about the extent of this prorrogative... well, i guess we are on common ground here. Who would know?

    EDIT: In fact, WC2012 Swiss Tourney was different from this ones, in more than one way.
    Last edited by NaharPT; 12-04-2012 at 01:59 PM.
    Ex-Official Organised Play Specialist (OOPS)

    Elder(Alumni) of Team Juggernauts - TJ
    Ancient Member of PFG

    IGN: NaharPT
    Live Server with Chat-room
    Test Server with Chat-room

  5. #335
    Senior Member MistahBoweh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    2,453
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by A1 Seragyn View Post
    ROFL Wow, okay... no-one is saying you should be forced to "harm" yourself. They are saying that matches should be played.

    Using your little definition, forcing say..a politician not to stuff ballots, or a leader not to slaughter his opposition would be "harmful" to him, and therefor unethical, because not doing so might endanger their chances of power... If you want a philosophical debate we can do that, but lets try and be grounded in reality first.
    The point is that even if IDs are removed from the rules, no one has yet come up with a way to avoid people from IDing through other means. You can remove a clause on Intentional Draws, but you can't stop intentionally drawing.

    Thus, if you insist that people should play out even though an ID, well within their rights, has all the positives and none of the negatives, what you're saying is that these players, whose main achievement is performing their best within a set of game rules, should now ignore these rules and take unnecessary risks that harm and, potentially remove entirely, their shot at top 8.

    What myself and others keep trying to get across is the same thing - these ideas are awesome, but you and others here are the ones that need to ground themselves in realism. Propose a change, and how it would be implemented. Demonstrate that it works successfully, prove that you can do better than the thousands of other minds that have tried and failed before you.

    The point is just saying 'you can't ID' changes nothing. It can't be done. If you think there's another way, more power to you. Just, that one won't work.
    MistahBoweh - Paragon of Paragons
    Warrior of the Blue Phoenix
    Greatness, Reborn

    My Strategy Site: The Boweh
    Latest Article: USED: MistahBoweh VS SamuelJ

  6. #336
    Senior Member MistahBoweh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    2,453
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by NaharPT View Post
    About the fact that you didnt knew about the extent of this prorrogative... well, i guess we are on common ground here. Who would know?
    Anyone who's played an event in this system before, IE anyone who's competed in the vast majority of tcgs before.
    MistahBoweh - Paragon of Paragons
    Warrior of the Blue Phoenix
    Greatness, Reborn

    My Strategy Site: The Boweh
    Latest Article: USED: MistahBoweh VS SamuelJ

  7. #337
    Senior Member Gerardo E's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Jakarta
    Posts
    137
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0
    lost to KOYA2 2-1

  8. #338
    Senior Member Maldazar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    904
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0
    First of all, yes, I'm currently at 4-2, but this does not change my oppinion, because when I was still at 3-1 (so I was still OK), I already made a post about 6 rounds being too few in this format... the answer was once again 'Its the standard'

    So what? If a standard is bad it should NOT be kept.

    Swiss tournament is a good format, and indeed, 6 rounds is the best amount IF you are looking for a single winner and NOT a top 8, when you are looking for a top 8, there should be MORE rounds, exactly because the 6 rounds force there to, at the end, be 1 player that never dropped a match, because it's just impossible for him to ever lose, because he will always face of players of same amount of points and he will always or win, or lose (there is no natural draw in Shadow Era).

    As you can see in my table bellow, with 6 matches you get 1 player that never loses, this is because 6 rounds in a 64 player tournament is indeed standard IF and the best way to go (and only if) you want a single winner and not a top 8.. if you are looking for a top 8 it's actualy a lot beter to have more rounds.



    Anyway, lets take for example my personal case:

    I have a 4-2 record, I managed to win 4 matches, my last one being against KA LEO, who was actualy in 4-1 (so he had 12 points, when I had only 9), anyway, at the end I have 12 points, BUT I have a record of 9 wins and only 4 loses, all the 4 matches that I won I managed to win 2-0 (not easy, this means I always won one game going second and one going first... so not just FTA wins), and from the maches I lost, I went 2-1 in one and 2-0 in the other one, so this is nearly a perfect 4-2 record.

    Basicly if people didn't ID but played all the 6 rounds (something that they signed up for) there should be a very high chance that I would get a place in the top 8, because in the european there would be (I think) 3 players with 4-2 that would get in, and I would probably be in those 3, because I got a good record.

    So basicly, people that are NOT playing, and probably would have an overall worse record then me if they played the last game, are being encourage to not play.. while it should be the opposite... always.

    Also, in most tournament that have a swiss style there are prices for other ranks, this way people keep playing even after losing one or 2 games to get those prices.. but here there is no incentive to keep playing, and this is wrong.

    Yes, it are the rules that where agreed on at start, but it sometimes takes a while before you see that someting is wrong... so should they just keep it wrong, or should they try to change it to make the tournament more fair?

    Possible fixes would be:


    1. Do not allow ID in the last round.. give people 1 extra week for round 6, but there exist no draw in round 6, if you cant play both people get 0 points.. because certainly with 10 days to play it should be possible for everyone to find a time.. if one player is on purpose not playing the other one of course the first one gets free win (decided by TO).

    2. Add 2 more rounds to the tournament (and give people that decided on ID this round to still play the match), with 2 more rounds there is less luck and more skill, also it would make it possible for more people to fight for the place 1 so that they can play against the place 8 first on the single elimination tournament.

    3. (and I think this would be the best) Make a top 16 single elimination tournament. As you guys can see from the tables above, the top 16 is a lot more flexible, so it's a lot harder for people to ID and be sure of the place in the tournament.. yes, the top could do it, but they can also play and even if they lose they are in... so there is no reason for an ID, and they would have a good reason to play (if they win and get very high they will play the lowest players first), also the players that are low now (the 3-2 players) have to play, because if they just ID they still don't have enough points to get in... Also it would have given more chance to people that for some reason got TERRIBLE luck in 2 matches.. (yes, it happens... can happen to anyone)..

    Anyway, I'm in favor of a last minute rules changes... if it is to make the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS more fair... but if you guys prefer to just make the WC to use a not totaly fair system then I guess I have to accept this.. But I believe there should be a vote and let the people that are playing the world championship qualifiers decide what they think is beter.. (specialy because there was no entry cost, so no one can complain they payed anything to participate.... like in the last WC, where there was an entry cost...).
    Member of E2E.

    “Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous.”
    “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
    “God did not create evil. Just as darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of God.”
    “I want to know God's thoughts - the rest are mere details.”
    “Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.”

    - by Albert Einstein

  9. #339
    Senior Member A1 Seragyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    412
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0
    @Nahar: I was against intentional draws in the last WC, im still against it here, id be just as vociferous about it were i 2-4 in fact, im not on the cusp, as my last match hasnt been played, leaving me at 3-2 still, so its quite possible it wouldnt effect me no matter what. Assuming its only an issue because of my scoring is not looking at "facts" the "Facts" are its being discussed now because, prior to this round it wasnt an issue, I.E. not everyone at the top could intentionally draw to stay there. I've discussed with YOU how it was a narrow tourney to begin with, and you yourself stated several times that yeah with this format several 4-2's should make it on tiebreakers.... obviously this state of affairs was not predicted by anyone (yourself included).


    @MistahBoweh: Im not sure why your getting defensive, Ive said several times i have no issues with players that accept/pursue a draw. The ruling that draws are allowed at all is wrong in my opinion. You signed up for a tourney with certain time limitations, you are expected to be somewhat flexible. If neither player is willing to do that... then thats your fail.

    Additionally, because you cant 100% stop everyone from doing something, does not mean it should be explicitly allowed. You cant stop everyone from murder, or theft, or catch them all...but it doesnt mean you just say screw it.... That argument is akin to a reverse slippery-slope fallacy. Just because people can do it, does not mean they will. In fact, I'd go out on a limb and say that if the consequences of breaking an intentional draw rule were DQ, that most people would rather risk the match then risk a small probability of being caught. The solution of course, is simply saying you cant draw in a BO3 match, and not finding times isnt excusable. If one player stubbornly refuses to be flexible, and the other can prove it...well then... he gets a win. If both refuse to be flexible...neither gets a win... simple as that...no policing..no chance at screwing things over. In MTG or any other game, if you dont show up to the match, you dont get the option of an intentional draw and being okay...you forfeit...period.
    "It gives me a headache just trying to think down to your level."

    A1's Paraniod Android


    http://www.a1-alliance.org/

  10. #340
    Senior Member Maldazar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    904
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by A1 Seragyn View Post
    You signed up for a tourney with certain time limitations, you are expected to be somewhat flexible. If neither player is willing to do that... then thats your fail.
    I agree with A1 Seragyn on this... There should be no rules for draw at all... you are responsable for your games, if you are not flexible enough, don't enter the tournament or give a win to your opponent... I have played games in VERY diferent times.. to suite beter all my opponents (played some in the morning, some late at night, some in the afternoon...) sometimes I got less sleep because of it, or had to get up earlier.. but I was compromised to play all my matches... everyone SHOULD be able to play the matches in the time window.. if you 'can't' then just leave the tournament...

    So in my opinions, draws should not exist at all... if that is too harsh, then at least in last round there should NOT be draws.. forcing everyone to play (give some extra days for the matches in that case... just to be totaly sure that everyone can play).
    Member of E2E.

    “Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous.”
    “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
    “God did not create evil. Just as darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of God.”
    “I want to know God's thoughts - the rest are mere details.”
    “Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.”

    - by Albert Einstein

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •