The importance of card advantage - Banebow tech

[BlanketEffect]

Heck, for that matter, say you have 20 cards in your discard pile, and then play Eternal Renewal. That's not -20 card advantage, it's only -1 card advantage.

Theoretical card that says 1: Do nothing. By your logic this is neutral on card advantage.

Sort of - I'm of the mindset that cards don't do nothing. And, if you read my original post, you'll see that this whole assessment assumes you're playing a well-built deck. When I'm playing a competitve game of MTG with someone who is playing against me on my level of skill, I assume that ANY card he draws is likely to be good/useful, and therefore to be counted in terms of card advantage.

If you're playing with someone who has the equivalent of a "1: Do Nothing" card (ie Curse, Campfire, et al) then even if he does manage to garner a slight card advantage over you, your quality of deck alone will likely overcome him.

[Fry]

I agree with the Surprise Attack statement. I didn't say it gives me a card advantage of 2. It gives me a 2:1 card advantage. In that, I spent 1 to get two, for a net gain of one.

Sure you did. You said you add up cards in discard pile and cards in hand. Before you had 1 card in hand and no discard pile. Now you have 2 cards in hand and 1 in discard pile, for a total of 3. 3-1 = 2.

[BlanketEffect]

Sure, if you want a simple count of cards drawn, count the 'yard, but you can't simply count cards drawn as a measure of card advantage.

If you drew 10 more cards than me, and I destroyed them at a zero for ten trade (as in my example), you have no net gain in card advantage.

If you leave out your count of cards in the graveyard, you'll get a more accurate measure of card advantage gained/lost.

Sort of. Presumably, those ten cards I played that you killed (somehow) for 0 still got used; did damage to you, neutralized allies, gave me some functional advantage IN the game. You are going to have raw 1:1 card advantage, but card advantage doesn't win you games just because you drew the cards, it wins you games because having played 10 cards against an enemy is likely to have had some very positive effect on your chances of winning the match.

[Kadun]

Sort of. Presumably, those ten cards I played that you killed (somehow) for 0 still got used; did damage to you, neutralized allies, gave me some functional advantage IN the game. You are going to have raw 1:1 card advantage, but card advantage doesn't win you games just because you drew the cards, it wins you games because having played 10 cards against an enemy is likely to have had some very positive effect on your chances of winning the match.

Look at it this way, we both have 7 card hands. I cast, "Mind Twist: Opponent discards 7 cards" on you. Leaving me with 6 cards in hand, and 1 in the graveyard and leaving you with 0 cards in hand and 7 in your graveyard. By your measure, we are even in terms of card advantage when it is clearly not the case.

[BlanketEffect]

Sure you did. You said you add up cards in discard pile and cards in hand. Before you had 1 card in hand and no discard pile. Now you have 2 cards in hand and 1 in discard pile, for a total of 3. 3-1 = 2.

I see your point. Perhaps I should addendum the card count thing to not be a DIRECT reflection of card advantage, per se. However, the guy that has a total (grave included) of 20 cards drawn, is almost certainly going to be in a better position than his opponent who has a count of 12.

Card advantage can mean a number of things, depending on the context in which you're using it. But, overall, more cards cycled through and IN your hand = more options you've had. If you and your opponent are playing equally well-built decks, the one that has access to more of his cards (options) is going to win more often, hands down.

[BlanketEffect]

Look at it this way, we both have 7 card hands. I cast "Mind Twist: Opponent discards 7 cards" on you. Leaving me with 6 cards in hand, and 1 in the graveyard and leaving you with 0 cards in hand and 7 in your graveyard. By your measure, we are even in terms of card advantage when it is clearly not the case.

That is correct. But, there really is no hand destruction in SE, and the count method I outlined was not meant to measure MTG, which has certain different mechanics of play. In MTG, you're absolutely correct, my count method would have very little accuracy. In SE, however, it's a lot closer to accurate than not.

[Fry]

As an aside, if you like Necro, you really ought to be playing a Warrior.

[Kadun]

That is correct. But, there really is no hand destruction in SE, and the count method I outlined was not meant to measure MTG, which has certain different mechanics of play. In MTG, you're absolutely correct, my count method would have very little accuracy. In SE, however, it's a lot closer to accurate than not.

Ok, look at it this way, we both have 7 card hands. You cast 4 Sparks and 3 Fire Snakes. I cast Tidal Wave. Leaving me with 6 cards in hand, an 1 in the graveyard and leaving you with 0 cards in hand and 7 in your graveyard. By your measure, we are even in terms of card advantage when it is clearly not the case.

[Padawan Pete]

Just a quick question. If I have 5 cards in hand and you have 8 cards in hand, why is this an advantage to you? Does it not depend on whats already been played (this you know) what has beed discarded (this you must guess at) and how many cards I still have to draw and what they might be (this you must guess at). I mean consistant decks have less of a cardd advantage/disadvantage. If I played a deck of 30 sparks, you could never have a card advantage over me really since I draw a card each time and I know exactly what it is. On less consistant decks the advantage becomes measurable but is still a guess at any one time.
No?

Pete

[Kadun]

Just a quick question. If I have 5 cards in hand and you have 8 cards in hand, why is this an advantage to you?

Because in theory, I can answer your 5 cards in 1-1 trades, then play 3 cards that you have no answer for.

Does it not depend on whats already been played (this you know) what has beed discarded (this you must guess at) and how many cards I still have to draw and what they might be (this you must guess at). I mean consistant decks have less of a cardd advantage/disadvantage. If I played a deck of 30 sparks, you could never have a card advantage over me really since I draw a card each time and I know exactly what it is. On less consistant decks the advantage becomes measurable but is still a guess at any one time.
No?

Pete

It's not about knowing what's in your deck or consistency, that's not the definition of card advantage. The link I posted earlier has some great info and examples of it.

Using your 30 Spark deck example, what if I was somehow able to kill 2 of your sparks for every 1 of my cards. Eventually we get to a point where you have no cards in your hand, none on the board, while I have both cards on the board and in my hand. I absolutely have card advantage over you because I am able to work towards a win while you are not.