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  1. #41
    Senior Member Unruler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preybird View Post
    You seem to think that providing decklists makes better players. I'm saying effort makes better players.
    I'M saying Firesnake makes everything better!
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  2. #42
    DP Visionary Preybird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unruler View Post
    I'M saying Firesnake makes everything better!
    You know, every post of yours today (that I've read) mentions Fire Snakeicon
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  3. #43
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    Sure, that was ultimately your experience. But it could have played out a different way:

    * New player knows he needs to get better at the game becuase he keeps losing so comes to the forums. Finds a lot of decks raving on about how good fire snake is and builds one. Keeps losing horribly and gets frustrated and quits the game.

    vs.

    * New player knows he needs to get better at the game becuase he keeps losing so comes to the forums. Finds a forum subsection with tournament decklists and builds one. Loses a lot less and continues playing the game.

    I know which situation I'd prefer if I was wulven.

    And as I've said before, for a lot of people and I play against them fairly frequently, they've lost the game before they start because their decks is horrible. No, people will not suddenly turn into top tier tournament players becuase they've got a netdecked list. But at least they won't have lost before they start.

    I'm not saying that this is the be all and end all solution to getting new people into the game. But it's useful information which can only help the community and hurts NO ONE in any real sense by being shared.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Unruler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preybird View Post
    You know, every post of yours today (that I've read) mentions Fire Snakeicon
    Read harder, some of them mention his minions.
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  5. #45
    DP Visionary Preybird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychobabble View Post
    Sure, that was ultimately your experience. But it could have played out a different way:

    * New player knows he needs to get better at the game becuase he keeps losing so comes to the forums. Finds a lot of decks raving on about how good fire snake is and builds one. Keeps losing horribly and gets frustrated and quits the game.

    vs.

    * New player knows he needs to get better at the game becuase he keeps losing so comes to the forums. Finds a forum subsection with tournament decklists and builds one. Loses a lot less and continues playing the game.

    I know which situation I'd prefer if I was wulven.

    And as I've said before, for a lot of people and I play against them fairly frequently, they've lost the game before they start because their decks is horrible. No, people will not suddenly turn into top tier tournament players becuase they've got a netdecked list. But at least they won't have lost before they start.

    I'm not saying that this is the be all and end all solution to getting new people into the game. But it's useful information which can only help the community and hurts NO ONE in any real sense by being shared.
    You know, how about we just agree to disagree? I don't want to drag this out any longer, and truthfully, the whole argument is moot because the decks aren't going to be released by GDC.

    However a week from now, some of us will have posted their WC decks (I've posted two that I used in the Swiss), and there'll be no problem.
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  6. #46
    Senior Member MistahBoweh's Avatar
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    Both arguments are valid.

    One side is for hiding decklists, believing that it is better for players to figure things out for themselves.

    The other believes that, since many viewing the games, working with guilds, and scouting all over can effectively reverse-engineer the decks anyways, posting the t32 lists will save time, plus allow those with less resources, the guildless, and those who come in after 30 games have been played on the given accounts to still know what was/is being played.

    Personally, as someone who IS one of those guilded players, and has all of those resources, I have to go with posting lists. People need to learn for themselves, this is true, but players need a starting point. The fact of the matter is that in order to build a good deck, a player needs to know what they want to play first, and the only way to know that is to have experience playing games.

    At the end of the day, there's a limit to learning how much about deckbuilding you can learn without first playing with the cards that make those lists good. Thus, it's much easier to help the learning curve by showing people their goals and letting them get a feel for the flow of gameplay as opposed to forcing players to start from scratch.

    Think of it this way: do you teach someone how to play by running them through a game or by forcing them to first construct a deck without any knowledge of the goals of the game, the cards, the pace, or anything else? Gameplay must be learned before deck construction, and to learn to make a good deck one must first play with good decks.
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  7. #47
    Regional Runner-Up Sisyphos's Avatar
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    I wouldn't mind the deck being posted.

    EDIT: Eh, why let GDC do the work:

    1x Banebowicon

    4x Brute
    4x Gargoyle
    4x Death Mage
    3x Bad Wolficon
    3x Shadow Knighticon
    3x Molten Destroyericon

    4x Poison Arrowicon
    4x Here Be Monstersicon
    3x Shriekicon

    3x Wrath of the Foresticon
    4x Soul Seekericon

    Total of 40 cards.
    A1's man without qualities - Evolution in theory.

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    However much one kind of longs to see the actors in war outdo each other in cunning activity, finesse, and stratagem, still one has to admit that these qualities show themselves but little in history and have rarely been able to emerge from amongst the mass of relations and circumstances.
    The reason for this is obvious enough: Strategy knows no other activity than the arrangement of combats with the measures which relate to it. It doesn't know, like ordinary life, actions that consist of mere words, i.e. expressions, declarations, etc. But these, which are inexpensive, are what the crafty one prefers to deceive with.
    This sober truth is always felt through and through by the actor in war and therefore he ceases to fancy a game of shrewd agility. Necessity presses so hard into immediate action that there is no room left for it. In a word, the pieces on the strategical chessboard lack the mobility that is the element of stratagem and cunning. - CvC, On War

  8. #48
    DP Visionary Preybird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sisyphos View Post
    I wouldn't mind the deck being posted.

    EDIT: Eh, why let GDC do the work:

    1x Banebowicon

    4x Brute
    4x Gargoyle
    4x Death Mage
    3x Bad Wolficon
    3x Shadow Knighticon
    3x Molten Destroyericon

    4x Poison Arrowicon
    4x Here Be Monstersicon
    3x Shriekicon

    3x Wrath of the Foresticon
    4x Soul Seekericon

    Total of 40 cards.
    I played a very similar deck in QM recently. Hard to pin down, and very tough. I was starting to experiment with the style because I liked it so much
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  9. #49
    Member GotDamned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychobabble View Post
    but in future it should be part of the entry rules.
    And every player who doesn't want to get his deck revealed can't play in a Tournament anymore then?
    That would suck.
    Sure, there must be rules, but nobody should be forced to something he does not want.

    Quote Originally Posted by psychobabble View Post
    1) The information divide between the general community and the highly engaged community (which has the time/effort/team resources to scout out decklists) rewards the wrong type of skill.
    Putting in some effort to learn basic strategies and theory crafting is the wrong type of skill?
    To get better you only need to learn those things from all the great articles written and you'll understand the meta faster and be able to build very good decks.

    Quote Originally Posted by psychobabble View Post
    The highly engaged group gets an advantage not from any ability to play the game or to understand it strategically, but by having the time to sit down and piece together lists from scouted information. The people who do sit down and watch games will still get the benefit of understanding the games that someone who just looks over lists won't, but posting lists allows everyone access to the basic information of "what's in the meta".
    The advantage from sitting down, scouting and so is not nearly as great as the advantage from reading articles on the forum and play some games.
    Lists won't change anything. Every deck has some strategy to win.
    If a new player goes here and copies the top deck, he may would not loss 9/10 games, but 8/10 games.

    Quote Originally Posted by psychobabble View Post
    I also agree that reading stuff like Witzky's guides and understanding them is useful to new players, but most of that information is just going to go straight over the head of a new player. The best way to learn the game is to build decks and play them. But most of the decks people build on their own are terrible and so their ability to understand the game (not to mention their enjoyment) is limited by the fact that their deck is filled with bad. They won't know that they lost the game because they played T2 bazaar against a zaladar, they'll just see that they got owned by a seemingly neverending series of mind controls and behemoths. They won't know that they lost because their turn 3 bloodstone alter crippled their board state, they'll just see jasmine's running all over them. What new players need most of all is decks that arent bad so they can start learning and having fun with the game. And their chances of doing that are increased if good decklists are more accessible.
    i, for myself learn far more from building a bad deck and reading articles and figuring out, why exactly my deck is that bad.
    Then i go and watch the replays and tune it.
    With decks from the forums i'm not any better nor worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by psychobabble View Post
    There's a lot of bad arguments that are being made against decklists being posted.
    In this post, the only argument against posting them is the first one.
    The other ones are just there, to show, that it's not necessarily and every player who want's a better rate than 50/50 in win/loss, should put some effort in.
    Playing with a deck he copied from the forum doesn't change it at all, if he does not know basic strategies.
    So, after all, there is 1 very good reason why players should not have to post their decks
    and endless very good reasons, why it isn't needed to post them.
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  10. #50
    Regional Runner-Up Sisyphos's Avatar
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    @ psychobabble:

    Most high-level players are willing to share their knowledge anyway, but imo making the demand of everyone to give something away they might want to keep for themselves, or else exclude them from an important event, is silly at best and oppressive and harmful to the community spirit at worst. In any sports you would ask a player or coach to talk a little about their game.
    A1's man without qualities - Evolution in theory.

    My cards ideas: for mages, for others

    Songs about Wulven by: TV on the Radio, Babel, Warren Zevon

    However much one kind of longs to see the actors in war outdo each other in cunning activity, finesse, and stratagem, still one has to admit that these qualities show themselves but little in history and have rarely been able to emerge from amongst the mass of relations and circumstances.
    The reason for this is obvious enough: Strategy knows no other activity than the arrangement of combats with the measures which relate to it. It doesn't know, like ordinary life, actions that consist of mere words, i.e. expressions, declarations, etc. But these, which are inexpensive, are what the crafty one prefers to deceive with.
    This sober truth is always felt through and through by the actor in war and therefore he ceases to fancy a game of shrewd agility. Necessity presses so hard into immediate action that there is no room left for it. In a word, the pieces on the strategical chessboard lack the mobility that is the element of stratagem and cunning. - CvC, On War

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