"Ascended" Heroes

[MistahBoweh]

Got this idea today, and wanted to post it before forgetting about it.

Ascended heroes are cards, placed within your 39, that can be played only when a special condition is reached. When you do, the ascended hero replaces your current one. All damage, effects, and attachments are moved from the current hero to the new one, and if the old hero was exhausted the new one is too. An ascended hero can only be played if the character depicted in the original hero matches the one in the ascended hero's typeline, and ascended heroes cannot transform back (or transcend yet again).

Some examples (not necessarily balanced):

Nishaven, Archmage of the Heavens (5)
Ascended Hero - Nishaven
0/36
You may only Ascend this hero if three or more allies died this turn.
5SE: Deal 4 electrical damage to all opposing allies.
"Only a man who has killed his own knows what it means to kill."
Epic

Amber, Queen of Combat (6)
Ascended Hero - Amber
0/40
You may only Ascend this hero if there are three or more weapons in your graveyard.
3SE: Target friendly weapon gets +2 attack permanently. Until end of turn, Amber deals an extra +1 combat damage against heroes.
"Her armor is her castle; her swords, her subjects."
Epic

Majiya, Lady of Fortune (4)
Ascended Hero - Majiya
0/36
You may only Ascend this hero if you drew four or more cards this turn.
2SE: Draw a card.
"After a quick bath in flame, I have triumphed yet again."
Epic

Zaladar Supercharged (3)
Ascended Hero - Zaladar
0/30
You may only ascend this hero if you control an ally named 'Spark'.
3SE: Put a 1/1 shadow elemental ally named Spark into play. It has "Spark has +1 attack and +1 health for every other friendly Spark in play".
"Deadly just got new batteries."
Epic

And some cards that could interact with this mechanic, like this:

Adoring Fan (2)
Human Ally
1/3
Adoring Fan gets +1/+1 as long as your hero is ascended.
"Can I follow you around? PLEEEEEEASE?"
Common

Touch of Humility (1)
Shadow Ability

Target opposing ascended hero takes 3 damage.
"The bigger they think they are, the harder they fall."
Uncommon

Touch of Heroism (1)
Human Ability

Your ascended hero heals 3 damage.
"The chosen are no more than the weak that simply chose to do something better."
Uncommon

Power Struggle (4)
Neutral Ability

If your hero is ascended, draw two cards. Otherwise, search your deck for an ascended hero, reveal it, put it in your hand, then shuffle your deck.
"Even the strong seek strength."
Rare

Thoughts?

[Awall!!!]

The idea is great!! One thing? Why does amber and maj get a huge health boost and zal doesnt? Are they attachments that can be destroyed? Or are they permenantely on?

[MistahBoweh]

The other heroes each gained a 10 point hp boost. Zal's is lower due to costing less, being a strictly aggressive ascended hero, the condition is easier, and to avoid any potential complications that could arise from infinite sparks.dek.

The Ascended Heroes are not attachments, and can not be removed by effects that remove attachments. they simply replace your old hero card with a new one.

[houshasen]

Pretty much sounded like what I suggested on http://www.shadowera.com/showthread....bilities/page2 based on the concept provided by Unruler.

I like the idea. Essentially it is leveling up hero, which Carte recently introduced. Their approach though had a problem, which is you do level up of hero permanently as you play game over and over i.e. you simply get more powerful hero card and use that from beginning of the game. But here it is during the game. So I like this approach much better. Also you are placing conditions for ascending, which is like RPG and I like that as well, which by the way is the concept new TCG who knows when to be released is trying to implement.

The concept is again very interesting and I like it or I would even say I love it. The stats here seemed bit overpowered (like you said), which I personally don't mind but if the game's fundamental belief is "fast paced", these will prolong the game. So perhaps going back all way to the increased max HP, you could do +10HP or something like that sort to indicate, the health you gain is the actual difference from where the original hero was at the turn i.e. if Nishaven's health was already down to 5, instead of going all way back to 36 with 31 health gain, you just have +10 i.e. 15. Obviously if you had Nishaven at 26, it becomes 36. But that's just balancing tweak that they have to see.

Question is should these card be sideboarded and ensure condition to be met is where the challenge lie? Otherwise, you can only include one of ascended hero in your deck (I assume) and the chance of drawing it, and keeping it until you can meet the condition seem a bit too much to be relying on as part of strategy. I know you are trying to use Power Struggle to sort of get rid of "chance of drawing" part, but what if you got the Ascended hero in hand at the beginning of the game. Alternative to sideboarding would be just modify Power Struggle and make it so special that you can essentially pull back Ascended hero from anywhere including deck, graveyard (in case got discarded), or resource pile.

Cool idea though.

[MistahBoweh]

It would have a limit of four, just like any other card in your deck.

Also I give a new max health instead of a bonus because first of all, the new hero card completely replaces the old one, which means for the physical game the old hero would no longer be present in play, second of all because there (may be, I'm not telling) multiple heroes printed in the future that depict the same character but not be Ascended Heroes. Like, there might be Nishaven and Nishaven, Bane of Ogloth, and both of them can turn into the ascended hero Nishaven, Archmage of the Heavens. because of this, it's not a given what the original hero's hp is, so it might not always be +10. Lastly, it won't always be positive either. Ascending replaces the hero's Max HP, but it will also affect current HP if the current is higher than the new max.

Say I have this Ascended Hero, for example:

Zhanna, Servant of Savros (0)
Ascended Hero - Zhanna
0/26
You may only Ascend this hero if you control an ally named "Priest of the Light."
1SE: Return target ally you control to your hand.
"Serve and be served; both serve Savros's end."
Epic

So I play my Priest of the Light on T3 and Zhanna now has 27 HP (and 27 max)

Then I Ascend to Zhanna, Servant of Savros.

Special conditions, like frozen, poison, hidden, and disabled move to the new hero, as does ready/exhausted. Then, the new hero replaces the old hero's MHP, then the current HP is applied. Gaining health is a buff to the hero card, like giving it +0/+1, NOT a special condition that carries over. The new hero will start with 26 HP, not 27.

Another example:

Logan, Beast of Rage (2)
Ascended Hero - Logan
0/20
Ascend this hero only if your hero killed an opposing ally this turn.
4SE: Kill target opposing ally.
"When Logan charges, you won't survive. Don't even bother getting out of the way."
Epic

Now, if this card said -10, not 20, then there would be a common misconception about how these cards work from both the physical and digital game. With just -10 in the corner, it's not made clear whether or not playing the card makes you lose 10 live even if your health is already lower than 30. Having that 20 mhp printed clearly shows that if you have more than 20 life when you play the card your life is now 20, but if you have under 20 life already you lose nothing.

Note that Enrage is an attachment, not a card buff, and the effect of Enrage WILL carry over and give +10 mhp to the new hero.

[Preybird]

Pretty much sounded like what I suggested on http://www.shadowera.com/showthread....bilities/page2 based on the concept provided by Unruler.

True, this feels like a variation on Unruler's and houshasen's ideas.

Has anyone hear played or heard of the Tabletop game Malifaux? This is almost identical to the Avatar idea in that game (Achieve a particular condition, character levels up to become an Avatar with new abilities, discarding the old). Though realistically, it's similar in concept to almost every RPG that has existed (the particular condition of course being an XP target)

Still a good idea though, and could add depth and nasty surprises to the game.

[MistahBoweh]

Well, there's lots of games that have leveling systems for characters. Take the Fullmetal Alchemist TCG, Yu-Gi-Oh, the Dragonball Z TCG, hell, even WoWTCG, the game this is based heavily on, has their Master Heroes.

What I don't like about WoWTCG's master heroes is that first of all, they have no relation to your original, second of all, they tend not to require any given strategy, and thirdly, you rarely have to do anything too special to acquire the upgrade. Sure, some of them are made a little cheaper by performing certain actions first, but those actions cost resources anyways so there's really no point.

What I DO like about the master heroes from WoWTCG is that you have to actually draw and play them. It's not like, say, Yu-Gi-Oh's level monsters that (usually) are searched for once a condition is met, or FMAtcg's lead characters that get to level up after being involved in combat and get their card from outside your main deck.

That's where this all comes together. My Ascended Hero design is about catering to specific strategies or card interactions, giving a sense of progression both in game terms and in story elements, but still having to draw and play the new hero like any other card, not get it out for free and do the same thing every game. It's a card, It shouldn't always be able to do things without you losing cards.

I never saw that thread before, but even if I had, it doesn't change much. You replaced hero abilities, sure, but there's WAY more to these cards than that. Like for example, there might be a card that doesn't have an ability at all, or one with a static effect like the old days before 1.27. There might be a hero with a native attack stat, so it can strike without a weapon in play.

Also, those attachments are vulnerable to destruction, don't give the same 'epic' feel or sense of progression, don't require you to have any kind of strategy to use, and get REALLY complicated rules-wise when you have more than one on the same hero. I don't mean to insult those who brought up the original suggestion, far from it, but I'm trying to point out that the two suggestions are very different things.

[Unruler]

It's an interesting concept, but main problem that I see with it, is that it's too powerful. It will drastically shift the meta and use of these heroes will be almost mandatory. Not only this will increase the gap between new and experienced players, but also can potentially decrease popularity of the game, since not everyone may like it. Whole match may depend on one tricky combo, and if one player manages to level his hero and other doesn't the last will feel cheated.

Also, isn't there a contradiction?

All damage, effects, and attachments are moved from the current hero to the new one, and if the old hero was exhausted the new one is too.

Having that 20 mhp printed clearly shows that if you have more than 20 life when you play the card your life is now 20, but if you have under 20 life already you lose nothing.

And reply regarding my thread:

Also, those attachments are vulnerable to destruction, don't give the same 'epic' feel or sense of progression, don't require you to have any kind of strategy to use,

That's because they meant to bring variety into gamelpaly.

and get REALLY complicated rules-wise when you have more than one on the same hero.

They are like weapons you're not supposed to use 2 at the same time.

[MistahBoweh]

Yeah, the damage is carried over, minHP, but maxHP isn't. I should say that current health is carried over, not damage.

[Martin JF]

Big YES! Especially the adoring fan :P
By Azura, by azura, by azura!