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Game GX Nomen Nescio vs BT Netrefa, turn 10.
I played Black market for 0cc that I had previously stolen from Netrefa. I think that's a bug. 2cc discount shouldn't take place because black market wasn't in play, it was being casted.
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Hmmm, okay, that was weird. Nothing else was on the board that looked like it would've effected it.
Calling Gondo!
Umm thats actually not how you summon Gondo. Here, let me do the honors:Quote:
Originally Posted by tman507
Darkest day, and lightest night
We beckon of Gondo, to heed our plight
O' devoted fan, please take our hand
and let no bugger be. Gondo, Gondo, Gondo: We summon thee!
That didn't work either....try this: here's my credit card!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kross
Lmfao xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Mann
Sounds like a bug, but let's call it a risk of putting Black Market in your deck for now, since it only benefits opponent.
So I spent more time thinking about this and I have concluded this is not a bug because:
1) there are other cards that discount their own summoning (e.g. Frostmare)
2) the wording on Black Market is sufficient to be referring to its own summoning when stolen (it is an item you do not own)
That's very confusing. Cost is usually paid before something is summoned, if it's otherwise then it means that all cards can be played until revoked for insufficient resources. If what you say is correct then Divine Connection should also cost 1 resource less on summon.
PS: Frostmare is a completely different wording as its cost is different when you have the card in your hand, it doesn't have to be summoned to take effect.
Divine Connection's text after "Attach to your hero" is referring to what holds when it is attached. This could be clearer, but I think we all know what it means, and have done for years. We have also understood what Frostmare means for several years as well, and Flare before that.Quote:
Originally Posted by BP Holy Punisher
Frostmare wording: "While an opposing player controls more allies than you, Frostmare costs 2 less resources to summon."
Frostmare behavior: It discounts its own summoning when condition is true.
Black Market wording: "Allies, items and abilities you do not own cost you 2 less resources to summon."
Black Market behavior: It discounts its own summoning when condition is true. While in play, it discounts summoning of other cards meeting condition.
Flare wording: "While there is another Elemental ally in play, Flare costs you 1 less resource to summon and it has +1 attack."
Flare behavior: It discounts its own summoning when condition is true. While in play, it gives itself +1 attack while condition is true.
Note that Flare is achieving both an in-play passive and this special summoning discount with the same sentence. Black Market is doing exactly the same.
I'm sorry you are confused, but I went to fix this but realised the text is right for the behavior and changing the behavior would mean the wording is wrong. I just fixed 5 other bugs that are legit bugs, but this one isn't.
I'd like to see what Kyle thinks about this as this goes against to what artifacts do in this game. Artifacts apply their effects as long as they are in play, that's why their wording never had to explicitly say "when they are in play". Having artifacts applying their effects when they are not actually in play goes against to the rulebook as far as I know.
Of course DT can still go forward with changing all the basic principles of the game as far as they don't want to admit they were wrong, but don't expect people to report bugs or start card discussions when their inputs are constantly dismissed.
Ooo spicy!Quote:
Originally Posted by BP Holy Punisher
I agree with you both, somewhat. So, the wording should just be changed so that it can't play itself for free.
Fwiw, I personally prefer it being able to play itself for free. I think its a cool interaction that promotes good technical knowledge of the game! But it seems to be unnecessarily confusing. Though, I've argued this point before regarding Shard of Power and, to an extent, Bad Santa, but those cards still work the same way -- so it doesnt matter what I think :( just like mum used to say
It's funny you mention being dismissed when I just gave clear examples to show why it works the way it does in accordance with the rules and the card text as written, yet you dismiss those and instead wish to invoke Kyle and launch into an attack on someone with no official role just trying to help in his free time. You're welcome!Quote:
Originally Posted by BP Holy Punisher
There is nothing in the rules stating the text of an ally is any different to text of artifact - if an ally can alter its own cost while being summoned via some of its game text then so can an artifact.
You gave wrong examples of card interactions of a different type! It's like me saying why I can't attach a weapon on my ally when I can attach it to my hero!?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gondorian
Please give me an example of an artifact that applies its effect BEFORE it enters play. Also I'd like a clarification whether a stolen Black Market should cost you 0 resources only when you have 2 or more unspent resources or even if you have 0 unspent resources?
Let me elaborate more on the card examples you have given me. Frostmare and Flair explicitly say that their cost is reduced as long as the opponent has more allies or you control another ally, respectively. These conditions are met while the cards are in your hand, they don't have to be summoned to take effect. That means that their reduced cost can be checked and confirmed before you play them, whereas Black Market has to be played to reduce its own cost. If it wasn't as I describe it then Frostmare wouldn't be free when your opponent controls exactly one more ally than you (as when he enters, the condition is not met anymore). This difference imo and it should not be disregarded. So excuse me, but no, you didn't give any solid examples or reasoning why this shouldnt be a bug.
PS: I only invoked Kyle because this was his game design so if someone knows best the exact intention of each card archetype then it's him. This game design was the reason that attracted and kept all its devoted players for years so it's really a pity for me to see that the flavour is changing in the last sets.
Nope. It's an item you don't own when in your hand so it meets the condition of being discounted by the text written on itself in the same way the ally examples do.Quote:
Originally Posted by BP Holy Punisher
Obviously allies and items are different in some ways but not in terms of their game text here. Just because this is the first time this happened for an item, it doesn't make it wrong or against the rules.
We just introduced an item that can become an attachment for the first time in the game's history, which only became possible due to the text written on that card. Are you against that as well?
So do artifacts meet their conditions now when they are in your hand? Does this mean that as long as you have a Chaos Engine in your hand and you destroy an item you can +1 SE and draw one card? Does this mean that if you have Leash of Life in your hand your ally adjacent to your hero is immune to attachments and have +1 hp? Their criteria are met while they are in your hand so they should work, right? These cards (unlike the original artifacts) don't specifically write "when X is in play" because iirc it was explained by the DT that their abilities are only active when they are in play so it didn't have to be repeated on the cards' text.
If people want this interaction because it's "nice to have" then I would suggest to change the wording to imply that the card reduces its own cost before summoning, similar to Frostmare and Flare.
I am curious to see the answers to my previous questions:
1) Does a stolen Black Market cost you 0 resources only when you have 2 or more unspent resources or is that also true if you have 0 unspent resources?
2) Is it a bug that Frostmare costs you 0 resources when your opponent controls exactly one more ally than you? Because if the cards before summoning are aware of the conditions after their summoning then Frostmare should know that once summoned his condition is not met anymore.
I had 0 resources left and I was able to play BM for 0.
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