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Loanhighknight

How Heroes Could Be Heroic (But Not Overpowered)

Rating: 4 votes, 2.75 average.
Who's your favorite hero? Not in Shadow Era, but in, well, anything. Think of the epic stories or books or whatever have you that prominently features a heroic struggle and think about how the hero in the story fights. Does (s)he start off at maximum power, blowing holes in row after row of enemy? Ehh, probably not. And if he does, you're a Superman fan and you should stop reading. You won't like where this is going.

So what can we take away from that to make Heroes in Shadow Era as engaging, central and dynamic as possible?

As it is, the heroes of Shadow Era are unbelievably broken. Let's look at Nishaven--one of the two heroes we've gotten to play with so far. He's a star! Or, more specifically, an exploding star. A Supernova, even. Whenever you want it. Sure, it's the same cost as Supernova, it does one less damage and doesn't affect heroes... but with the right deck, it won't matter. It's his ability to pull out the field sweep whenever he wants it that makes him game breaking. I put a deck list in Nishaven's Card Discussion thread for him:

Nishaven
A few ongoing spell-removers
Every burning card I can fit before reaching the minimum deck-size
(I originally included spell counters, forgetting that Kyle has no intention of putting them in--no spell counters is an understandable choice, and it does hurt this deck a little but I think my point will still stand)

Unless the opponent is fielding a better control deck, it's a reliable fifth turn lock. Every time the opponent fields an ally, you sweep it away with Nishaven, a burn card, or both. Use any remaining mana to burn your opponent's hero; as turns progress, you'll have more mana to burn the opposing hero faster, but the lock on the opponent's allies will remain. Because allies don't attack the turn they come out, nothing will get to swing at Nishaven after the fifth turn. Game over.

There is a reason why games include a cap on the number of identical cards with the same name in a deck. It's to prevent the same effect from being applied over and over and over. If an opponent couldn't deal with a given card's effect the first time, he won't be able to deal with it the second time, or the third time, or the twelfth time. Removing the card cap would turn the game into a one-card show. That's what I think heroes in Shadow Era might do.

There are a couple arguments for why heroes are this way. For one thing, they're heroes! They're SUPPOSED to be the toughest cards on the board. Aragorn didn't get killed in the first scene of Lord of the Rings because he's a hero--he gets out of scrapes others would die in because he's a hero, and that same heroic advantage should be reflected in a card bearing the moniker 'hero.' For another thing, every deck gets one, and they're ALL superpowered like this.

Here are my issues with these arguments. First, as to their being the toughest cards on the board, they are actually TOO tough. Because their powers are so useful in so many situations, decks will be constructed around the heroes. Story-wise, that makes sense to me--after all, it's the hero that's summoning these allies to battle, so in theory, the entire deck should be reflective of the hero that summoned them. I get that. But a good deck builder looks at the card the deck will be built around as a keystone. It holds the deck together--but at the same time, is supported by the rest of the deck. Said deck builder decides on a deck mechanic that maximizes the benefit of that keystone card or cards. In Magic, these keystones are usually creatures or spell combos. In Yu-Gi-Oh! they're usually a given monster that can dominate with the right supporting cast. The issue with Shadow Era is that the keystone almost HAS to be a hero. I mean, when a Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh! deck loses, what's the phrase you hear most often?--"I didn't get the deck's main combo off! I didn't draw the big cards in the deck." When these decks don't draw their keystone, the deck falls apart. It's the cardinal flaw in any deck in these games: the user is subject to luck. They might get mana-screwed or not draw the second piece needed to pull off some killer combo.

But in Shadow Era, you're guaranteed to get your keystone. In fact, you're guaranteed to have him/her for the whole game, because if it dies, you lose. I want to be clear: I recognize that this game is not MtG or YGO. I get that it's a different game entirely, with unique game mechanics and a talented creator, and I get that it's a slippery slope to expect the same strategies to work in one game that works in another. However, none of these exceptions mean we can't learn from the mistakes of other TCG's.

To anyone here who played Yu-Gi-Oh!, think back to when the Chaos decks romped through the scene. Before the two chaos cards came out, the scene was coated in many, many different decks sporting many, many different keystones. But suddenly, the best keystone came out (for those who never played, the chaos combo was fast, easy to pull off, and all but ended the game) and all the decks became the same. Every other deck used the same keystone in the same way, and the scene became rather boring. To MtG players, the closest thing I can think of was the Skull Clamp decks. Everyone used Skull Clamps, but in different ways--so at least it was fun to see what sort of wacky ways players could abuse a card that let you draw your entire deck in a turn. In both MtG and YGO's cases though, these keystone combos were ultimately and summarily banned.

The fear I have is that you're giving players a bunch of these broken keystones, but taking away the luck involved in pulling them off. Games, I feel, will become largely similar, regardless of the opponent you're playing, if the keystone combos are so guaranteed.

But we all love the idea of having a hero card. I haven't heard anyone say they should be made on par with the minions they summon. After all, if an orc killed Aragorn, the story would have been mercifully shorter...

So how can we limit the power of heroes, but still maintain their specialness? How can we give the players a keystone, AND keep luck of the draw and user error a pivotal part of the game? I've heard a couple of ideas: the first was upping the cost of these heroes' activated abilities, and the second was adding a limit to the number of times per game that they can be used. The first is an attempt to turn the heroes into late-game drops. That is, make them inert until the game has progressed to a certain point. Or, at the very least, make the player really have to pay out the nose to get their keystone going. I'm not sure this is really a fix. All it does is make the beginning of the game feel like chapters in a book when nothing really all that exciting happens. Remember the last Harry Potter book? Think about the three hundred or so pages in the middle where the characters wandered aimlessly through the forest. That.

The second idea is a really hard sell. For one thing, I think it's somewhat inelegant. Most TCG's avoid the "you only get to use this card's effect once per game" text because it's so limiting. Plus, it means that some heroes will be distinctly better than others. But really, the issue I have is that it's saying that a hero's impact on a game has to be limited to one turn, which I don't think fits in to the whole epic battle thing.

So here's what I'm proposing: let's put the luck and situational aspects back into the heroes without disincentivizing their abilities. Let Nishaven keep his sweeping effect, but don't let him pull it off fifth turn when he hasn't summoned an ally. Change his effect to something like: "(5) Activate this ability only when there are at least three allies on your side of the field. Deal 4 damage to all allies on both sides of the field." Change Majiya's effect to something like "(2) Activate this ability only when you have two or less cards in your hand at the start of your draw step. Draw an extra card this turn." Give them all situations when their effects are allowed to go off. Situations that the rest of the deck has to make happen. In short, make the keystone cards of Shadow Era NEED the deck they're placed in. Let them support and hold the deck together, but make their success or failure be dependent on the deck they're in.

Heroes are fun because of the struggle that leads up to the tough fight. We like Batman more than Superman (oh, that's right, I went there again. Suck it, Superman.) because Batman has a struggle before he kicks ass. Superman gets to come out swinging, Batman has to sneak around first and do some detective work. One needs support, the other doesn't.

/rant.

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Comments

  1. Ice's Avatar
    I suppose you haven't played the World of Warcraft Trading Card Game: Heroes have powers that flip them face-down (there's a health value and art on the other side), so oftentimes you can only use a hero's power once per game (unless you have an effect that flips it face-up again), and it works really, really well. And those powers aren't even as stupidly powerful as the Shadow Era heroes' powers are; they are actually less effective than the ability cards they mimic (they either cost more or have some manner of restriction for using).
  2. Narziss's Avatar
    +1, I agree with the two above, and I think Loanhighknight's assessment of the situation is highly illuminating. We are restricted to four of a card per deck, so why should the hero's ability emulate infinite copies of a card, and not just any card, but an extremely broken card?

    Your suggestion to add more conditions to the use of the hero's ability is a decent way to restrict the use of the skill; however, I don't think it is sufficient to control the problem entirely.

    Following Ice, as well as repeating a suggestion I have made elsewhere, I'd hope that hero skills become limited to once per game. I think the effect of adding a token/stone on top of the hero card (to show that his ability has been spent) might work well. That way, there could be special cards that remove the token/stone and allow the hero to use his ability once again.

    The flipping mechanism might be good too; that way you could conceal the contents of your deck from the initial impression of your opponent. If they don't know what hero you have, they won't be able to play with certain expectations in mind (until the content of your deck is slowly revealed).
  3. Loanhighknight's Avatar
    @Narziss Yep, and I think that's over-nerfing. I'm kinda cool with the heroes in SE being overly beefy. I clearly can't speak for him or anything, but it seems that Kyle wanted them that way. The only thing I was looking to do is find a way for them to rely on their deck so their beefiness won't stand without strategy.

    Now, if I remember correctly, the vast vast VAST majority of the WoW heroes' abilities support and reinforce the allies on the field--either by weakening enemies or buffing allies. The difference here is that we've got a system where there is no beefing at all, and the heroes can play a more active role.
  4. NPD's Avatar
    It's really hard to say how dominating your proposed deck would do without an understanding of how the other classes work. For instance if I played your seem deck but used the shadow hero instead I would have an advantage over you because my hero power is relevant. Yes he is really good against ally decks. But judging by the previews, I think that all the classes will be able to win without the use of allies(granted it might not be their plan A).

    The whole hero with really strong abilities thing can easily go wrong if it's not implemented carefully, but could also just be really interesting to have the heroes play a more active part of the game.

    Actually I think it would be nice if we could get a list of all the cards that will be release(not to test yet) but to get a better sense of the game.
  5. Shadow Era's Avatar
    A great read! I agree with most of your points, that the hero's powers might be too strong. But it is up to you to counter them.

    If you are playing Majiya against Nishaven, for example, you know that Nish can easily take out your allies. So you can play Portal as soon as you can, then use your allies to attack on the same turn. While Nish is wasting all his mana on removing your allies, your allies are actually damaging him every turn, plus your "draw a card" ability can be used every turn as well to give you more to choose from. Who do you think would win in a game against Nishaven vs Majiya?
  6. Loanhighknight's Avatar
    @Kyle a) Glad you liked it. b) I'm not sure the best option is to rely on the opponent to field cards like Portal to counter the effects of a hero that will be on the board the whole game. And besides, it's not like there's an implementation of a side deck yet. That is, Majiya would have to run Portal whether she knows Nishaven is the opponent's hero or not. Granted, it's a useful card, but making it a staple for Majiya decks JUST because the opponent might field Nishaven seems sorta silly. Plus, you'd still have to hope Portal popped into your hand early enough in the game for it to matter. (It seems like the better idea might be to make sure your deck is able to keep the opponent's hero ability from ever going off at all, while countering your opponent's attempts to do the same--whether you do that with the ideas I laid out above or not, I think having two opponents driving toward getting their own hero's ability off while preventing the other hero from doing it makes for a deeper and more strategic game.)

    As for who would ultimately win: assuming Nishaven is running a burn deck and Majiya is running a control/beatdown, I think I'd give the edge to Nishaven. I know what point you're driving at and normally, you're right that control beats burn decks, but there are no spell counters in this game and counters are a crucial part of, well, keeping control... Expecting to get the same results without them is an iffy proposition.
  7. Narziss's Avatar
    By the way, I elaborated the solution I offered here.